Great job Phil! scatter plots rule!
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Great job Phil! scatter plots rule!
Phil,
I just wanted to say "Great job" on the scatter plots. I have been playing with them and it makes it so much easier to see what is going on. I have been having issues with knock and looking at per cylinder knock has allowed me to notice some issues that I have been trying to chase down for a while. Thanks for all your work!
I just wanted to say "Great job" on the scatter plots. I have been playing with them and it makes it so much easier to see what is going on. I have been having issues with knock and looking at per cylinder knock has allowed me to notice some issues that I have been trying to chase down for a while. Thanks for all your work!
Brent Savage
life behind the zion curtain
90 audi RS2 20VTQ 6sp MS3, MSX COP and Sequential and now MAF
87 Scirocco 2.0 ABA 16v EIP tubular cast MSII COP
86 Audi 4K20VTQ MSII
90 Audi 90 sedan 3.6l DOHC V8TT (project car)
89 VW cabbie (bitch basket) 2.0 ABA Turbo MSII
life behind the zion curtain
90 audi RS2 20VTQ 6sp MS3, MSX COP and Sequential and now MAF
87 Scirocco 2.0 ABA 16v EIP tubular cast MSII COP
86 Audi 4K20VTQ MSII
90 Audi 90 sedan 3.6l DOHC V8TT (project car)
89 VW cabbie (bitch basket) 2.0 ABA Turbo MSII
Re: Great job Phil! scatter plots rule!
Would you mind sharing the data that you found useful to plot? I.e. what you had on each axis?
Thanks
Thanks
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Re: Great job Phil! scatter plots rule!
You have two plots with 3 dimensions. The x y and z data sets are selectable. I was looking at knock per cylinder with map and afr shown. I can look at the amount and intensity of knock on each cylinder and compare two at a time. It is easy to see trends and bigger patterns with the plots.
Here is a screen shot of that data
Here is a screen shot of that data
Brent Savage
life behind the zion curtain
90 audi RS2 20VTQ 6sp MS3, MSX COP and Sequential and now MAF
87 Scirocco 2.0 ABA 16v EIP tubular cast MSII COP
86 Audi 4K20VTQ MSII
90 Audi 90 sedan 3.6l DOHC V8TT (project car)
89 VW cabbie (bitch basket) 2.0 ABA Turbo MSII
life behind the zion curtain
90 audi RS2 20VTQ 6sp MS3, MSX COP and Sequential and now MAF
87 Scirocco 2.0 ABA 16v EIP tubular cast MSII COP
86 Audi 4K20VTQ MSII
90 Audi 90 sedan 3.6l DOHC V8TT (project car)
89 VW cabbie (bitch basket) 2.0 ABA Turbo MSII
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Re: Great job Phil! scatter plots rule!
Scatter plot is one of the most powerful features in all of EFI tuning. I have been using them almost exclusively for about two years now.
The trick is do fairly huge data logs with about 300,000 records. I normally start with with the X and Y axis the same as the X and Y axis of the table in TS that you are working with on your tune, The Z axis is normally the thing you are trying to adjust and you are looking for patterns in the colors as the result from the table. The most common combinations are
To tune a VE table
X=MAP
Y=RPM
Z=AFR
or to tune a spark table
X=MAP
Y=RPM
Z=Knock
I also like to add filters to create all sorts of cool plots
Now try creating a few fields
RPMfiltered = [Engine]=1?[RPM]:0
MAPFiltered = [Engine]=1?[MAP]:0
PWfiltered = [Engine]=1?[PW]:0
then plot
X=MAP
Y=PWfiltered
Z=RPM
All sorts of surprising patterns start showing up when you play with filters.
Have fun tuning.
Andy
The trick is do fairly huge data logs with about 300,000 records. I normally start with with the X and Y axis the same as the X and Y axis of the table in TS that you are working with on your tune, The Z axis is normally the thing you are trying to adjust and you are looking for patterns in the colors as the result from the table. The most common combinations are
To tune a VE table
X=MAP
Y=RPM
Z=AFR
or to tune a spark table
X=MAP
Y=RPM
Z=Knock
I also like to add filters to create all sorts of cool plots
Now try creating a few fields
RPMfiltered = [Engine]=1?[RPM]:0
MAPFiltered = [Engine]=1?[MAP]:0
PWfiltered = [Engine]=1?[PW]:0
then plot
X=MAP
Y=PWfiltered
Z=RPM
All sorts of surprising patterns start showing up when you play with filters.
Have fun tuning.
Andy
Re: Great job Phil! scatter plots rule!
Has anyone got anymore info on using Scatter Plots that would be helpful? I'd really like to start using them but I'm still unsure of what I'm doing, although the above has now given me a better idea of what's what!
Thanks
Thanks
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Re: Great job Phil! scatter plots rule!
See http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 00&t=47234
The best thing to do is ask what you are trying to see and I will help you with how to see what you are looking for
This happens to be a fairly typical plot off our turbo rotary Miata running an autocross.
Andy
The best thing to do is ask what you are trying to see and I will help you with how to see what you are looking for
This happens to be a fairly typical plot off our turbo rotary Miata running an autocross.
Andy
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Re: Great job Phil! scatter plots rule!
When I'm fine tuning the VE table, instead of using VEAL, I'm plotting RPM in X, MAP in Y and Gego in Z. Then, dark blue are areas on the VE table that are too rich and red are areas where it's too lean. You need to have closed-loop EGO working to do this.
For tuning the idle initial duty, I'm using RPM in X, MAT (or CLT) in Y and idle_duty in Z. Use this scatter plot on a cold startup and warmup log.
There are a lot of other possibilities, but these are the ones I'm using the most.
Sam
For tuning the idle initial duty, I'm using RPM in X, MAT (or CLT) in Y and idle_duty in Z. Use this scatter plot on a cold startup and warmup log.
There are a lot of other possibilities, but these are the ones I'm using the most.
Sam
Re: Great job Phil! scatter plots rule!
Thanks for the replies, I suppose to begin with I knew nothing about scatter plots other than I'd heard a lot of people talking about them, so just wanted to know how to make use of them. I did a scatter plot the other day of my TPS% values vs RPM in Excel to get a better idea of my actual ITB Load Switchpoints and that made a massive difference.
So I guess the next thing would be to find areas where I think I'm too rich just after/around my switchpoints from SD to AN where I'm hitting about 13.6AFR or so at about 15-25% TPS or there abouts.
I guess that would be RPM vs Load vs AFR?
So I guess the next thing would be to find areas where I think I'm too rich just after/around my switchpoints from SD to AN where I'm hitting about 13.6AFR or so at about 15-25% TPS or there abouts.
I guess that would be RPM vs Load vs AFR?
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Re: Great job Phil! scatter plots rule!
Phil,
about scatter plots, some time ago I found a sort of manual you wrote, showing some graph with different X-Y-Z fields and explaining how they can be useful in our tuning.
I thought it was on the MLV "help" page, but I can't find it there.
Please, may you post here or may you tell us where you put that page? I would like to take advantage by this fantastic tool!!
Thank you very much.
Fabio
about scatter plots, some time ago I found a sort of manual you wrote, showing some graph with different X-Y-Z fields and explaining how they can be useful in our tuning.
I thought it was on the MLV "help" page, but I can't find it there.
Please, may you post here or may you tell us where you put that page? I would like to take advantage by this fantastic tool!!
Thank you very much.
Fabio
Yamaha V-Max V4 paired odd-fire 1200cc engine - ITB - COP
MS2/Extra Pre 3.4 beta 11
Sequential spark & fuel - ITB Algorithm
MS2/Extra Pre 3.4 beta 11
Sequential spark & fuel - ITB Algorithm
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Re: Great job Phil! scatter plots rule!
You may have come across the "Tuning With Scatterplots" Presentation from the 2013 MegaMeet at DIY AutoTune.
http://www.tunerstudio.com/downloads2/2 ... rPlots.pdf
http://www.tunerstudio.com/downloads2/2 ... rPlots.pdf
Phil Tobin
EFI Analytics, helping to simplify EFI
Next Generation tuning software.
Supporting all MegaSquirt versions and firmwares.
http://www.TunerStudio.com
http://www.efiAnalytics.com/MegaLogViewer/
Support the firmware running your engine:
http://www.msextra.com/doc/donations.html
EFI Analytics, helping to simplify EFI
Next Generation tuning software.
Supporting all MegaSquirt versions and firmwares.
http://www.TunerStudio.com
http://www.efiAnalytics.com/MegaLogViewer/
Support the firmware running your engine:
http://www.msextra.com/doc/donations.html
Re: Great job Phil! scatter plots rule!
There's a very good page that Andy (whittlebeast) wrote here: http://www.ncs-stl.com/tuning/
Is that what you were thinking of?
Is that what you were thinking of?
Eric Law
1990 Audi 80 quattro with AAN turbo engine: happily running on MS3+MS3X
2012 Audi A4 quattro, desperately in need of tweaking
Be alert! America needs more lerts.
1990 Audi 80 quattro with AAN turbo engine: happily running on MS3+MS3X
2012 Audi A4 quattro, desperately in need of tweaking
Be alert! America needs more lerts.
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Re: Great job Phil! scatter plots rule!
Yess Phil, exactly that one!! Thank you!!LT401Vette wrote:You may have come across the "Tuning With Scatterplots" Presentation from the 2013 MegaMeet at DIY AutoTune.
http://www.tunerstudio.com/downloads2/2 ... rPlots.pdf
Eric,elaw wrote:There's a very good page that Andy (whittlebeast) wrote here: http://www.ncs-stl.com/tuning/
Is that what you were thinking of?
great page! Thank you! But no, it isn't, I meant a Phil's (and Andy) document.
Now I have a lot to study
Fabio
Yamaha V-Max V4 paired odd-fire 1200cc engine - ITB - COP
MS2/Extra Pre 3.4 beta 11
Sequential spark & fuel - ITB Algorithm
MS2/Extra Pre 3.4 beta 11
Sequential spark & fuel - ITB Algorithm
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Re: Great job Phil! scatter plots rule!
Ditto
Thanks guys,was just about to ask the same question...they sure look pretty but without the info behind them...
Going to read..
John
Thanks guys,was just about to ask the same question...they sure look pretty but without the info behind them...
Going to read..
John
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Re: Great job Phil! scatter plots rule!
Talking of which,any ideas why I've got horizontal bars instead of a swarm/cloud?
Something to do with logging the TPADC?
Thanks
John
P.S think my throttle plates need a balance at TPADC 26 ?
Something to do with logging the TPADC?
Thanks
John
P.S think my throttle plates need a balance at TPADC 26 ?
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Re: Great job Phil! scatter plots rule!
If you are plotting an integer field where it is logged as whole numbers only (such as any ADC will be), you will get those bars instead of a cloud.
Phil Tobin
EFI Analytics, helping to simplify EFI
Next Generation tuning software.
Supporting all MegaSquirt versions and firmwares.
http://www.TunerStudio.com
http://www.efiAnalytics.com/MegaLogViewer/
Support the firmware running your engine:
http://www.msextra.com/doc/donations.html
EFI Analytics, helping to simplify EFI
Next Generation tuning software.
Supporting all MegaSquirt versions and firmwares.
http://www.TunerStudio.com
http://www.efiAnalytics.com/MegaLogViewer/
Support the firmware running your engine:
http://www.msextra.com/doc/donations.html
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Re: Great job Phil! scatter plots rule!
Give me time to log off mate....
Excellent
Thank You
John
Excellent
Thank You
John
Re: Great job Phil! scatter plots rule!
I'm teaching myself filters in the scatter plots..and have a syntax question.
In the above post in RPMfilter..what does [RPM]:0 mean?
Many thanks. .
In the above post in RPMfilter..what does [RPM]:0 mean?
Many thanks. .
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Re: Great job Phil! scatter plots rule!
It's an "programming rule" (I don't know how to tell in English, sorry)
RPMfiltered = [Engine]=1?[RPM]:0
Literally, RPMfiltered value depends of [Engine] value.
This is the check: if ([Engine]=1) is true, then RPMfiltered = [RPM] value, else RPMfiltered = 0.
Cheers,
Fabio
RPMfiltered = [Engine]=1?[RPM]:0
Literally, RPMfiltered value depends of [Engine] value.
This is the check: if ([Engine]=1) is true, then RPMfiltered = [RPM] value, else RPMfiltered = 0.
Cheers,
Fabio
Yamaha V-Max V4 paired odd-fire 1200cc engine - ITB - COP
MS2/Extra Pre 3.4 beta 11
Sequential spark & fuel - ITB Algorithm
MS2/Extra Pre 3.4 beta 11
Sequential spark & fuel - ITB Algorithm
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Re: Great job Phil! scatter plots rule!
Inline if statement, you can do a lot with them.
testCondition ? trueExpression : falseExpression
Each component can be simple references to a field or value, or it can be an expression.
testCondition is considered true if it resolve to a non-zero value, false if it is 0.
In the above example:
RPMfiltered = [Engine]=1?[RPM]:0
It works like Fabio outlined with the key point being that if [Engine] == 0, it sends the value to 0, so all values where Engine is not 0, will hit that spot and not show up on the scatter plot.
A couple notes though:
The correct syntax would be:
[Engine]==1?[RPM]:0
There should be 2 = signs in a comparison operation.
Then any time any other Engine bits other than Run are set, the value would be set to 0. This turns the value of RPMfiltered to 0 unless only the run flag is set.
However, I think Andy wrote this back before the scatter plot and Histogram filters work quite as they do. Here he was creating new fields with some data filtered, but now in Scatter Plots and Histograms, you can write filters that do not change the value, they simply filter the record if the filter resolves to true (not 0).
So to accomplish the same thing, you would go into the Filter editor and create a new filter:
Filter Name: All Enrichments
Filter Expression: [Engine] != 1
Then when looking at a Scatter plot or Histogram, the All Enrichments Filter will show in the list, you can toggle it on and off by click on the bulb.
Also not the logic is reversed here ([Engine] != 1) as it is a filter, so it is when the condition is true, that is when the data is filtered, not when the data is shown.
testCondition ? trueExpression : falseExpression
Each component can be simple references to a field or value, or it can be an expression.
testCondition is considered true if it resolve to a non-zero value, false if it is 0.
In the above example:
RPMfiltered = [Engine]=1?[RPM]:0
It works like Fabio outlined with the key point being that if [Engine] == 0, it sends the value to 0, so all values where Engine is not 0, will hit that spot and not show up on the scatter plot.
A couple notes though:
The correct syntax would be:
[Engine]==1?[RPM]:0
There should be 2 = signs in a comparison operation.
Then any time any other Engine bits other than Run are set, the value would be set to 0. This turns the value of RPMfiltered to 0 unless only the run flag is set.
However, I think Andy wrote this back before the scatter plot and Histogram filters work quite as they do. Here he was creating new fields with some data filtered, but now in Scatter Plots and Histograms, you can write filters that do not change the value, they simply filter the record if the filter resolves to true (not 0).
So to accomplish the same thing, you would go into the Filter editor and create a new filter:
Filter Name: All Enrichments
Filter Expression: [Engine] != 1
Then when looking at a Scatter plot or Histogram, the All Enrichments Filter will show in the list, you can toggle it on and off by click on the bulb.
Also not the logic is reversed here ([Engine] != 1) as it is a filter, so it is when the condition is true, that is when the data is filtered, not when the data is shown.
Phil Tobin
EFI Analytics, helping to simplify EFI
Next Generation tuning software.
Supporting all MegaSquirt versions and firmwares.
http://www.TunerStudio.com
http://www.efiAnalytics.com/MegaLogViewer/
Support the firmware running your engine:
http://www.msextra.com/doc/donations.html
EFI Analytics, helping to simplify EFI
Next Generation tuning software.
Supporting all MegaSquirt versions and firmwares.
http://www.TunerStudio.com
http://www.efiAnalytics.com/MegaLogViewer/
Support the firmware running your engine:
http://www.msextra.com/doc/donations.html
Re: Great job Phil! scatter plots rule!
Got it...thank you both for taking the time to help me..