Dual Input on V-twin VRS issues

[Tassuperkart]

Hi gents
Earthside is taken care of with every earth wire in the system coming back to one point on the frame and then from there going direct to the battery.
Ill do a redo of the starter motor as a matter of course but those logs were done by pushing the bike along in 2nd gear with the plugs out. No starter.

Its just everything goes to s*** once the engine gets above about 250 rpm. below that there seems to be some semblance of normal.

However, that tooth log makes no sense to me at all.

One of the VRS's outputs about .5v +/- more that the other. It looks like a 4 cylinder output at the minute.????

I have a feeling that the internally triggered D585 coils might be messing with things RF. I have 2 coils triggered off a single IGN out. there might be something in that as well. I tried a D585 coil on my trailbike with aftermarket and it messed with the ECU's head on that as well.
Im going to try using the original dual output Accel coils with a Bosch 200 trigger transistor and see what the outcome is interference wise.

If anyone can have a look at that MSQ file and tell me if I have things correct there would be helpful.

E

[LAV1000]

Ill do a redo of the starter motor as a matter of course but those logs were done by pushing the bike along in 2nd gear with the plugs out. No starter.

Its just everything goes to s*** once the engine gets above about 250 rpm. below that there seems to be some semblance of normal.

However, that tooth log makes no sense to me at all.

One of the VRS's outputs about .5v +/- more that the other. It looks like a 4 cylinder output at the minute.????

I have a feeling that the internally triggered D585 coils might be messing with things RF. I have 2 coils triggered off a single IGN out. there might be something in that as well. I tried a D585 coil on my trailbike with aftermarket and it messed with the ECU's head on that as well.
E

So starter motor doesn't act up yet.

Maybe a dumb question, but are you using resistor sparkplugs ?
Checkk data on those coils, there is a type wich ignites random if dwell time gets to big.

[Tassuperkart]

No, starter works perfectly.
I have cranking dwell set at 3.5Ms and run dwell set at 3Ms. Recommended well for the D585 is 4.5Ms.

[LAV1000]

Did you try to run it with alternator and rectifier disconnected ?

[Tassuperkart]

No.
Why?

[LAV1000]

Alternators are small 2 or 3 fase ac generators.
Ac circuit on most bikes is isolated to ground.
Voltage can reach 70 Vac average, top (sinus) value x1,4 = 98 Vac

The rectifier controls this voltage by shunting the voltage so it drops to safe levels.

If one of the alternating coils connects to ground or rectifier doesn't work the way it should you get nasty spikes in the power source.
Wich are also rpm related.

You probably don't notice this on a carb/ point ignition bike.
Only parts that fail on this are lightbulbs and a boiling or almost boiling battery.

[Tassuperkart]

Yep, 2 wire no faults. Japanese aftermarket regulator and a clean and more or less ripple free output on the scope.

E

[LAV1000]

How and were did you mount the ignition coils ?
How are coil grounds connected ?
What type of spark plugs are you using and are they new and never been flooded ?

[Tassuperkart]

ignition coils mounted in the stock position and grounded directly to the head
Sparkplugs are stock. Flooded? No.
Leads are wire wound supression leads New.

As mentioned before, theres enough spark in this thing to light a bushfire.

W

[jsmcortina]

The MSQ you posted is set to "Even Fire" - as I said before, that just won't work on an odd-fire engine.

Your composite logs show false triggers or cross-talk.

twintrig.png

James

[Tassuperkart]

James
d***... I reckon ive put the wrong MSQ up. Sorry about that, Ive saved quite a few of them to date.

However, that composite trace was done with odd-fire set and 270 degrees angle entered. Its bees set that way for a long time now.
It was done by pushing the bike slowly along in gear.

What do you make of the tooth log? It just doesnt look like id expect it to.

Cheers
E

[LAV1000]

Don't know if this helping.

I was also running special noise reduction HT leads on dumb Dyna coils, nice silicon spark plug caps and standard spark plugs.
Had a lot of trouble when logging, connection got lost.
Only remedy was to power cycle the ms unit and start again.

Changed the set up to normal copper HT leads, NGK resistor spark plug caps and NGK resistor spark plugs.
The normal standard spark plug was a NGK B9ES and changed to BR9ES, same heat range only a resistor for noise suppression.
The resistor type spark plugs are also advised in the manual.
Seems to work for me.

[Tassuperkart]

I removed the D585 coils and ran the IGN 1 and 2 to a Bosch 200 2 channel igniter and this is driving the old Accel coils I had for many years.

I still havent replaced the starter sprag clutch but the same problem remains. Noise on the VRS circuit causing mis-triggers. I tried to roll start the bike and altho im getting both cylinder firing at around the right time, (not popping back thru the TB's or exhaust) i couldnt get it to light up and stay lit up.
The actual output from the VRS's is clean and sharp but still the tooth logger show strange things happening.

Once again,I have been thru all the wiring checking for possible earthside issues, i have individually checked every earth which all come back to one point on the chassis.

Im starting to feel that this ECU is faulty now. Might be time to pull it out for some bench checks
Cheers
E

[Tassuperkart]

Finally finished my shed so have somewhere to work.

Quick summary.
Both existing VRS sensor ohm out withing a few ohms of one another and have an output of +/- 5.5v @360rpm. Tried various shunt resistor values to limit output as low as =/- 0.2v with no success.
Removed the D585 coils and fitted the old Accel coils with a Bosch 2 channel ignitor
Both VRS sensors have been rewired using high quality shielded cable. The shielding is not terminated on the engine.
Both power relays were very close to the ECU so i moved them right away from the ECU just in case EMI might have been interfering.

I used a simple function generator to input a VRS signal to make life easier with this thing. Only a .75v output but good enough for the job. I modified a sawtooth wave to approximate the VRS waveform and configged the ECU as a single input (single cylider) setup Added all systems and the Composite waveform is clean and stable.

So i reconfigged for twin trigger and applied an input to both VRS inputs and again the logger showed a dead steady and clean waveform from both trigger inputs.

Reconnecting the bikes own VRS triggers and hand cranking the back wheel and if rpm is kept below about 200 rpm it triggers Ok mostly.
Once above that, triggering and synch go to hell and the fuel pump relay will click in time with the injector triggering........

By process of elimination, the interferance in the system appears to be GENERATED by the bikes own VRS sensors, despite a clean and consistent VRS output on the scope. However the trigger waveform in TunerStudio goes everywhere when the engine is wound over, even by hand. The ECU simply does not like Ducati VRS's I reckon!

This is a fair disappointment as the installation now needs a custom fabricated VRS setup rather than more or less "plug and play" using the stock VRS's. C'est La Vie!

I will copy the VRS install and toothed wheel done by a friend on his bevel drive Ducati and go to a single trigger with 36-1 wheel. Added irritation and expense but its the way it goes.

E

[LAV1000]

Keep us posted, just curious .

[Tassuperkart]

I finally got to the bottom of things with this difficult issue.

It turns out that the source of the interference is the actual stock VRS's themselves.
Despite that marvelous waveform, somehow or other, the VRS's are causing crosstalk at the signal conditioner. I havent the slightes idea how or why but it just does.

I concocted up a ghetto signal generator using my phone and fed that up the nose of the ECU and the entire system sat there humming and buzzing away between 300 rpm and as high as 10,000 rpm.
So nothing in the system was being affected by EMI or RF at all which was pleasing.
Reconnecting the stock VRS's and the ECU just lost its shite as before at anything above 200rpm.

I decided to remove the stock (dual) VRS's and change over to a 24-1 toothed wheel single trigger setup. I fabricated a new backing plate and fitted a VRS out of a KLR650 Kwakka.
The trigger wheel is a 24 tooth universal chain sprocket that i machine to fit in place of the stock trigger wheel. After machining the tooth tips to create a 4mm flat to match the VRS nose, the wheel ended up almost the same diameter as the stock trigger wheel. I setup #1 tooth to be 180 degrees btdc to ensure a stable cranking rpm

I ran a few tests by driving the engine over using a drillwith the plugs out and got a clean signal into the composite logger. tried the same with the (previously noisy) starter and all looked good. Tthe thing fired into life on the very first touch of the starter button.
I can tell you that after all this issue, that was one of the sweetest sounds I have heard in a long time.

Just a few tidy up jobs and move on to actually tuning it!!!

Cheers
E

[LAV1000]

Nice to read it all worked out now.
I also sure didn't susspect the VR sensors, good job.

[Tassuperkart]

Cheers and thanks m8.
Nobody more surprised than myself I can tell you!!!!!
E

[Tassuperkart]

A bit more
Altho the engine fired up nicely, id suspected a dud fuel pump. its always been noisy but was delivering base pressure.
however during early tuning, it decided to die gracefully and I chased it with VE. in the end, it refused to run for much longer than about 30 seconds, always starting up first flick but then running progressively leaner as the AFSTE tapered off.
Changed out the pump with a spare but once with full fuel pressure, the VE map was all over the place so i generated a new map and it fires up first flick of the key again.

Invoked auto-tune and despite a NB ego it has set itself cleanly in many load points. enough i can easily "fill in the blanks" by hand.

the bike is ready for a ride but one thing I have found it that the "base" VRS timing isnt quite what the ECU thinks it is.
I have set TDC tooth 180 degrees opposite TDC as recommended which is fine but the actual VRS head is slightly behind the tooth that should represent TDC. The mounting arrangement on this engines means i cannot adjust the VRS to point at the tooth. Its the way it is.

The engine is running quite retarded,
I changed the angle to 165deg to look at the tooth in front of what i need to. Its Ghetto but it worked well enough to get it all running nicely.
Since the "Trigger Offset" function does not work when "Toothed Wheel" is selected, is there a global ignition adjustment/offset I can add over and above the primary ignition table so the actual figure the engine is seeing is the same as whats in the current load point?

Cheers
E

[Tassuperkart]

All sorted.
I got what i needed in another thread and i now have the timing running exactly where I need it to be.
Thanks for everyones patience and input.

I havent ridden the bike yet but starts are robust and the engine lights up every time the button is pushed.

Cheers.
E