New install MS-2 v3.57 4g63/4 hybrid

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New install MS-2 v3.57 4g63/4 hybrid

Postby arcgear » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:42 pm

Hi,

A few years back I purchased a MS-II rev 3.57 to use in my 2.4L stroker DSM. I had to put this project on hold for a little while, and am just now coming back to it. Unfortunately, I can't remember much of where I left off with this hardware after spending hours upon hours of research and piles of cash on new parts. I'd greatly appreciate a hand! (I did try to find as many answers on my own in the literature so as not to clog up the boards with repetitive questions). I purchased it in the store completely assembled; I don't quite remember any of the options I had bought with it.

This system is to be installed on a later 7-bolt 4g64 block with a 1G turbo ported, cammed, o/s valves and completely reworked head. I have a brand new set of OE dual ignition coils of OE make on 7mm quality HV wires to be used in the factory wasted spark configuration. I will be using the factory Hall effect crank sensor on the engine.

I need a bit of help integrating the factory coil(s) pack to the MS-II. According to the lit, there two options to utilize the OE wasted spark configuration and hardware: jumper PAD1 to Q16 (transistor not installed on my board ATM, but that space is occupied already?), or incorporate the Bosch BIP373 system. The former seems like an easier solution had it not been in use.

I'm assuming individual control of either coil packs (A or B) stems from the ignition power transistor? Is this what the factory ECU uses as a switching/triggering device between the two coils, but controlled by a single ignition output referenced on the MS-II (pin 36)? Also, will these changes necessitate reevaluating the filtering capacitor on the coil pack?

It's rather muddy to me overall, if someone can explain the order of operation between these ign components and the MS, it would greatly help me out. Is there an inherent disadvantage to the "going low" option? Are there any limitations this system would encounter under high boost and high revs? Heh, I hadn't realized how labor intensive this operation would be.

P.s: kind of a stupid question, but what exactly is that daughterboard in the center of the unit and what is its function? I thought it had something to do with driving the idle air control servo...
I'm again completely unsure as to what extras I bought with this aside from the MAP sensor--it was a number of years back

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Re: New install MS-2 v3.57 4g63/4 hybrid

Postby rickb794 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:39 am

To drive a pair of standard wasted spark coils you will need to modify your MS.
You will need to add the native driver Q16 and it's 330 ohm resistor. You will need to add a second identical transistor and resistor for the second ignition channel.
I usually mount this to the case or endplate.
http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/MS2V357_Hardware-3.4.pdf
Sections 5.2.12 - 5.2.13 - 6.10 - 6.17 - 6.18 or 6.19 Depending on if your motor has a CAS or Crank & Cam sensors.
You will only need a crank wheel with a missing tooth to do wasted spark and batch fired injection.
If you are using CAS you will need the cam sensor as there is no missing tooth to define crank position.
See 5.2.14 - ,1 & .2 for the cam sensor circuit if needed.


The daughter board in the center is the processor (MS2) also on that board is the chip for running a 4 wire stepper motor for idle speed control. That is the 4 yellow jumpers on the bottom of your board.

The MAP sensor is already mounted on the bottom of the board (the black oval shape)

If you are not up to modding the board there are people on this board (me) or DIYAuto who can perform that service for you.
Adding the cam sensor circuit to a v3.57 board is not a simple task, but a great way to learn.
Last edited by rickb794 on Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:14 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: New install MS-2 v3.57 4g63/4 hybrid

Postby Matt Cramer » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:41 am

Just remove that JS10 to Q16 jumper. You'll be needing JS10 for the cam sensor input anyway.
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Re: New install MS-2 v3.57 4g63/4 hybrid

Postby arcgear » Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:30 pm

Thanks for the replies! I probably will end up installing that driver as you recommend. The literature proposes an alternative option of using the OE ignition power transistor to switch hot and heavy, as used in the OE setup in conjunction with the CamAS and CrankAS. I'm moreso curious for my own information If you wouldn't mind me badgering you with more questions concerning it :)

Here's an extraction of the 4g63 ignition setup with the ignition power transistor with two drivers to handle both coils. It's very similar to the Bosch pieces recommended in the manual. Pins 2 & 7 are triggers for the coils. This thing is probably as old as I am and I'm not too interested in using it, but I would like to know if this is an acceptable option to be used by the MS2 system. I opted to install a 97-99 cam sensor, which is a broken tooth type as you mentioned. I guess I'm a bit confused if this particular method slims down output space by having all the legwork done in that module, rather than installing two dedicated circuits and giving full driving duty to the MS unit. Does this still require additional drivers to be added to the board with this approach?

Also, will the filtering capacitors need to be reevaluated on the coil pack if they're both being reassigned and driven by those transistors added to the MS?

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Re: New install MS-2 v3.57 4g63/4 hybrid

Postby rickb794 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:11 pm

You lost me, are you using an external ignitor or internal?

As long as the crank signal goes to the MS and the MS triggers the igniter you will have full functionality.

If it is an ignitor that the crank sensor connects to I would avoid it.
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Re: New install MS-2 v3.57 4g63/4 hybrid

Postby arcgear » Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:12 pm

Originally, I had wanted to use the factory transistor pack to fire the wasted spark system, keeping the CMS / CKS/ Coilpack in factory configuration. I've since been told that it would be more prudent, worth that minimal extra effort to add a set of drivers and let the MS2 system operate the ignition. I was simply curious that it would work both ways; the more I read about it, it seems plausible. But as you were saying about hall signals--it could pose problems even in the factory state.

I ordered two of those BIL kits to install on my board as you recommend. I rev the piss out of this engine; what I've gathered from you and the manual is that this is a better choice.

Aside from adding a few resistors, integrating these '98 MY CMS and CKS shouldn't pose a problem? I'm still a bit concerned about the phase shift in coil operation by handing it a brand new system to operate in.
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Re: New install MS-2 v3.57 4g63/4 hybrid

Postby rickb794 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:11 pm

"I'm still a bit concerned about the phase shift in coil operation by handing it a brand new system to operate in."

Just make sure you recharge your dilithium crystals and it will be fine.

https://www.diyautotune.com/product/bosch-bip373-coil-driver-mod-kit/
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Re: New install MS-2 v3.57 4g63/4 hybrid

Postby arcgear » Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:50 pm

come to think of it, while perusing the store for add-on parts, I started to want one of those "NOS" buttons. Maybe would also want two empty cylinders that read "NOS" in size clownshoes font, but no, not some contractor connected to an electrovanne on a vessel, or even anything remotely related to nitrous kits. I just wanted a tacky neon button that makes an Armenian whore house a paragon of good taste in comparison. It must glow, too. Let's not forget the important bits--that's a deal breaker.

At any rate, this dear button is much more than a resounding f_ you to good taste! When you strike this button, one immediately rams their skull into their against the B-pillar and causes everything behind the windshield to become bleary. Of course, the button has no direct affect upon anything currently on the road; if I were a gamblin' man I'd wager it'd have something to do with so beating your head so adroitly against the upholstery

unfortunately, the MS shop doesn't carry premium parts like this, so I must gather my belongings and take my business to ebay--obviously the same place where they source the script and knuckle-dragging dialogue privy to a very certain series of movies out there....
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