Reaching top of VE tables by half throttle

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Washdup
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Reaching top of VE tables by half throttle

Post by Washdup »

Title says it all, I have gone through a major turbo upgrade on my car since i first built it. Currently in the process of retuning it but find it hard to tune for anything past 60% throttle or 4500rpm due to the dot riding the top of my VE tables by then. Hoping its just a setting i have messed up but am leaning towards maybe a bigger MAP sensor.
Some info about the car, its a volvo 940 with a built b230ft, Microsquirt Ms2extra, dual stage manual boost controller set to wastegate pressure, 44mm external wastegate with 10psi spring, Holset HX40 .63 exhaust side, AEM Uego Wideband, Running on 93 pump gas now, 850CC injectors, Walbro 255, Adjustable FPR set to 60PSI, Huge intercooler etc. It should scoot pretty good.
I am just trying to get a base tune setup with this turbo and am having the aforementioned issue.
Its only letting me upload the MSQ but have a log of it idling and attempting to go full throttle with it and some regular driving,
Thanks a ton
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tryingbe
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Re: Reaching top of VE tables by half throttle

Post by tryingbe »

Lower your boost? The tune is setup for a 3 bar map sensor, what map sensor do you have installed? Any reason why you run 60psi base fuel pressure?

I like using these to make the initial tables.

http://www.useasydocs.com/theory/spktable.htm
http://www.megamanual.com/v22manual/vetable.htm
1985 Dodge Omni GLH Turbo MicroSquirted 367whp http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=67324
Blown88GT
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Re: Reaching top of VE tables by half throttle

Post by Blown88GT »

See your VE Table. Does this look right to you?
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VE Table.jpg
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1988 Mustang GT, 59k miles, Orig Owner
ProCharger 600B I/C, 12psi, FRP Hdrs, Flwmstr F2, 3G Alt, Contour Fan & DCC, 3.55's, Prog Sprg, Subfms, UCA, LCA, FCA, Tokico 5's, Bridgestone RE-71R 245/40R17, Crane HI-6, Kirban FPR, MS2, DIYPNPF60, Spartan 2, C&L76mm blo-thru MAF, 47lb FRP-LU47
Washdup
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Re: Reaching top of VE tables by half throttle

Post by Washdup »

tryingbe wrote:Lower your boost? The tune is setup for a 3 bar map sensor, what map sensor do you have installed? Any reason why you run 60psi base fuel pressure?

I like using these to make the initial tables.

http://www.useasydocs.com/theory/spktable.htm
http://www.megamanual.com/v22manual/vetable.htm
I am indeed running 3 bar map.
can't really go any lower with the boost since its set to wastegate pressure currently, so 10 psi. I have heard with softer springs the exhaust can push the gate open prematurely.
Added the log file so you can see whats going on a bit better.
As for the second reply, i dont see anything really wrong with it but if there is let me know. pretty new to this stuff!
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goodysgotacuda
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Re: Reaching top of VE tables by half throttle

Post by goodysgotacuda »

Wouldn’t you just rescale the y-axis of the table to a higher map value?

Or are you “maxing” out the table in a different way?


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Matches
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Re: Reaching top of VE tables by half throttle

Post by Matches »

Have you calibrated your MAP sensor?

If you're seeing 315kpa, that's 31 PSI right? Wastegate set to 10psi you should be seeing ~170 kpa

I remember from the setup manual that if you tightened the nylon nuts on the sensor too much, you can warp the sensor case and throw off the readings.
Blown88GT
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Re: Reaching top of VE tables by half throttle

Post by Blown88GT »

Washdup wrote:
tryingbe wrote:...As for the second reply, i dont see anything really wrong with it but if there is let me know. pretty new to this stuff!
Look at the values in the purple cells as compared to the others around them.
Why is VE so low in this area?
Where did this table come from?

Find any one of these that looks like yours.
https://www.google.com/search?q=volumet ... 47&bih=542
1988 Mustang GT, 59k miles, Orig Owner
ProCharger 600B I/C, 12psi, FRP Hdrs, Flwmstr F2, 3G Alt, Contour Fan & DCC, 3.55's, Prog Sprg, Subfms, UCA, LCA, FCA, Tokico 5's, Bridgestone RE-71R 245/40R17, Crane HI-6, Kirban FPR, MS2, DIYPNPF60, Spartan 2, C&L76mm blo-thru MAF, 47lb FRP-LU47
turbo conversion
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Re: Reaching top of VE tables by half throttle

Post by turbo conversion »

Do you have a vacuum-boost gauge installed, if so does it track the same as TS?

Also the barometric correction should be set to 100 not 0.

I agree with Boosted, your VE table looks strange, numbers seen low to me and to many rows for boost.

Here is an example of my VE table, this is why your VE table looks odd to us.

David
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1976 Datsun 280Z L28ET Garrett GT35R T3-T04E stage3 50 trim 63 A/R housing custom grind cam 2000-6000 rpm 440cc injectors intercooled 18 lbs. boost
3" exhaust turbo back LC-1 o2 sensor Hallman manual boost controller EDIS 6 ignition batch fire 60mm throttle body 5 spd T5 borg warner 3.54 lsd
Washdup
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Re: Reaching top of VE tables by half throttle

Post by Washdup »

turbo conversion wrote:Do you have a vacuum-boost gauge installed, if so does it track the same as TS?

Also the barometric correction should be set to 100 not 0.

I agree with Boosted, your VE table looks strange, numbers seen low to me and to many rows for boost.

Here is an example of my VE table, this is why your VE table looks odd to us.

David
I do have a boost gauge installed, idling it reads -21 hg vs tuner studio which says I'm at 0.
Key On gives me a plus 25 or 27 psi in tuner studio.

Are you talking about the baro correction curve or the one in map calibration?
The difference between your table and mine is what I'm trying to figure out, that purple section on mine is when I let off throttle in a gear the top 2 rows are where the dot stays after 45% or 50% throttle
Very weird.
ashford
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Re: Reaching top of VE tables by half throttle

Post by ashford »

definately a mismatch map sensor/ calibration. it almost appears you have a 1 bar or 1.5 bar map sensor. there is just no way you can go from idle to 28# of boost at 550rpm at 10% throttle in under 500ms.
baro has defaulted to lowest setting so i think maybe you have mixed up the baro and map sensors if one is a 1 bar and the other is a 3 bar
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Re: Reaching top of VE tables by half throttle

Post by jsmcortina »

As ashford says, your MAP sensor isn't reading correctly.

At key-on, before starting you should see MAP and Baro both at around 100kPa for sea level or down to maybe 60kPa if you live at a serious elevation.

If you don't see those numbers or they don't match within 2 kPa - STOP AND FIX IT.

James
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Washdup
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Re: Reaching top of VE tables by half throttle

Post by Washdup »

ashford wrote:definately a mismatch map sensor/ calibration. it almost appears you have a 1 bar or 1.5 bar map sensor. there is just no way you can go from idle to 28# of boost at 550rpm at 10% throttle in under 500ms.
baro has defaulted to lowest setting so i think maybe you have mixed up the baro and map sensors if one is a 1 bar and the other is a 3 bar
Okay well glad it hear it is most likely the sensor. In the map calibration it's set to the default gm 3bar and same for the baro, there is only a single map on this setup so should I just turn off baro correction? I was under the impression the single sensor did both.
I live in Chicago so it's just about sea level here, so I left all the Baro correction stuff zeroed out.
My apologies for the ignorance, this is my first build.
Edit- I feel so dumb, finally got a chance to look at my laptop and check out the barocorrection settings in detail and it give you the instructions on how to calibrate it. Set the curve to 100 across the board so I will test it first thing tomorrow and report back with results. Hopefully this fixes it. Thanks so much all of you.
prof315
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Re: Reaching top of VE tables by half throttle

Post by prof315 »

Either turn off the baro correction or set it to sample on key on. Off tends to be a safer choice. To run full time baro correction you need 2 pressure (MAP) sensors.

Since you're a newb I would STRONGLY recommend you download the MS2 manuals linked at the top of the page and read them..... several times.
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tryingbe
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Re: Reaching top of VE tables by half throttle

Post by tryingbe »

Washdup wrote: I am indeed running 3 bar map.

I'd start testing there. With key on, engine not running, what kPa do you see from the MAP reading?
1985 Dodge Omni GLH Turbo MicroSquirted 367whp http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=67324
Washdup
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Re: Reaching top of VE tables by half throttle

Post by Washdup »

Okay so I tried a few things this morning, first tried just messing with the baro calibration setting the curve to 100 across the board. Same result, so I played with the rate and % 147, -47 still same. Then I tried changing to the gm 1 bar this made the most difference, key on was 2 psi and I got it to idle and it was -13. Thought maybe I got a fluke sensor so found new part number for one from autozone, first one was from advance auto.
SU105 is autozone part number I bought. 89 turbo trans am. It's a different color and but same shape and 3 pin plug
Plugged it in and low and behold it's the exact same reading as the one I have before.
So then I thought maybe my tune is just messed up beyond repair so I loaded the tune the guy gave me with theecu so I could start it and also got the same readings as before on the blank tune and new sensor.
I took screenshots but am on a phone currently.
Last thing I'm going to check for is for any loose grounds
I have a friend coming by tomorrow morning to take a look at it, he knows a bit more than I do
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Re: Reaching top of VE tables by half throttle

Post by jsmcortina »

What MAP reading is TunerStudio showing at key-on?

** It is really important that you check this. **

Without that correct you are p**ing into the wind.

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

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Washdup
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Re: Reaching top of VE tables by half throttle

Post by Washdup »

jsmcortina wrote:What MAP reading is TunerStudio showing at key-on?

** It is really important that you check this. **

Without that correct you are p**ing into the wind.

James
This is key on in tunerstudio
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Re: Reaching top of VE tables by half throttle

Post by jsmcortina »

That confirms that your MAP sensor calibration is set incorrectly in TunerStudio.

At sea level you should be getting around 100kPa. Your dash shows 292kPa.

That needs setting correctly - perhaps you actually have a 1-bar MAP sensor? You are currently calibrated as a 3-bar.

Changing the setting is important, you will have to start over with the fuel table, but once you have re-set it, things will start to make sense.

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
New users, please read the "Forum Help Page".
tryingbe
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Re: Reaching top of VE tables by half throttle

Post by tryingbe »

Washdup wrote: I am indeed running 3 bar map.
Judging from the screenshot, you have a 1 bar map sensor.

Where did you get this map sensor?


I notice your Barometer is at 80kPa, which means you're at 6700ft or so above sea level?
1985 Dodge Omni GLH Turbo MicroSquirted 367whp http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=67324
prof315
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Re: Reaching top of VE tables by half throttle

Post by prof315 »

tryingbe wrote:
Washdup wrote: I am indeed running 3 bar map.
Judging from the screenshot, you have a 1 bar map sensor.

Where did you get this map sensor?


I notice your Barometer is at 80kPa, which means you're at 6700ft or so above sea level?
Not necessarily with sensor calibration issues
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