2zz integration with ms2/extra

[aduhaime2003]

I am posting because i am looking for advice. I am a noobie and could really use some help.

I ordered a ms2 with vb921 drivers to setup n my 2003 vibe gt. I was hoping at first to ditch the stock ecm and go to town. Though it would be a lot of tuning i figured this would give me the best results. I have now found I may have some decisions to make.

From what i have researched on the net for this setup i have some problems.

1. Other systems in this vehicle seem to use i/o on the ecm to run. This unfortunately takes my ability to remove the computer completely. This is what i am getting from the schematic that i have found. (attached) This stuff includes the airbags and abs.

2. It seems that to control the vvt it may be very hard to come up with an algorithm to suit the pwm output due to the fact that there is feedback to compensate for oil viscosity differences. There is a hall effect sensor that is setup to give the advance when the vvt is being adjusted. I am not sure whether to use the stock computer to adjust this, leave it be or come up with something else. I could use the stock ecm output as a base and add or subtract duty cycle to change the position. The problem is that if i do so the feedback must also be adjusted so the stock computer is not readjusting to compensate.

2. Emissions is a must. I need to pass emmissions in pa. I was thinking of leaving the stock ecu connected less the fuel injectors and coils. I would also then have all the emmisions equipment still working...ie evap and other. The mass airflow sensor would also be hooked up to both computers.

3. Keeping ths stock computer happy so that I dont have rich/lean codes is the next concern. I know people have doe this all before but how does the stock computer usually react to having no control on the fuel mixture. If i get codes then i cannot pass the sniffer.

4. Ignition timing control is something that i would like to do. Since the stock ecu is there I dont know if it would be better to use it to control the spark and use the megasquirt to control advance and retard. I am going to turbocharge the car. I am therefore going to need to have some way to retard spark based on the bosst pressure. Advance is not so much a concern. I could take the signal from the stock ecu and add a delay to the signal to give the retard. I dont know if this is a good idea or not.

5. Idle control is probably just going to be the stock ecu.

As you can see i am kind of lost and if i would have done some more research i most likely would have just gone with a emanage ultimate. Unfortunately i have already spent 400 bucks on the ecu, second map sensor, igniton drivers and some other parts to put it together as well as the time to solder it and assemble it all. So i guess that means I am committed to it now. Regardless I really need to talk to someone to help me norrow down my decision making process. I am hoping to find some of your guru help. Thanks...Art

[aduhaime2003]

I forgot another question...Has anyone used the stock maf sensor on anyvehicles to tune the ve. I would think that if you had both the signal from the map and the maf signal and had some way of knowing the mass of air/voltage. This could be a useful tool to come up with a base map.

thanks

[thechuckster]

A 1/2ZZ toyota motor with factory NA ECU and a turbo is recipe for death-by-detonation. The ECU and injectors simply wont flow enough fuel when on boost and you'll grenade the engine.

You might find ECU removal impossible as i think than generation of engine include the immobiliser in the ECU so the engine+ecu+ign switch are all required to turn the alarm off and run the engine. Likewise if it's an auto, you'll discover that the own gearbox ECU is part of the main ECU?

Just putting to one side the need to pass emissions - theres a number of systems that you dont have to worry about:
-the load sensing (e.g. deminster or AC is on) you can deal with with closed loop idle
-you can control the idle with MS but you might have to change to a 2/3 wire bosch valve from a donor vehicle
-evap can be something as simple as a one/off VSV powered off the fuel pump circuit - allowing an EFI charcoal cannister to purge fumes to pre-throttle when engine is running.
-the airbag probably just needs to know that the engine is running - its own ECU will also be looking at speed sensors (e.g. shared ABS sensors) so you dont trigger the bags when braille parking.
-you don't need to monitor extra power circuits (light, dome, brakes etc) as they're used by the factory ECU to retain error codes and monitor electrical load (e.g. idle control again)
-O2 control - the extra code supports AFR tables - just dail in your desired AFR's.

Given that you might want to pass a yearly emissions test, you could make the ECU plug in place of the factory unit (or at least piggy back and cut a lot of output signals)

VVTi - good luck with that one - someone else can chime in on that topic.

spoofing OBDII data signals is not condoned so i'll skip over that bit.


now if you were to put this motor into a kit car as a dedicated racer then all these issues are no longer of concern ...


cheers and good luck!
Charles.

[muythaibxr]

2. It seems that to control the vvt it may be very hard to come up with an algorithm to suit the pwm output due to the fact that there is feedback to compensate for oil viscosity differences. There is a hall effect sensor that is setup to give the advance when the vvt is being adjusted. I am not sure whether to use the stock computer to adjust this, leave it be or come up with something else. I could use the stock ecm output as a base and add or subtract duty cycle to change the position. The problem is that if i do so the feedback must also be adjusted so the stock computer is not readjusting to compensate.

Just let the stock ECU control it. You have VVTL-i BTW if you've got the 2zz-ge. Which means you're not only controlling valve timing, you're controlling lift.

2. Emissions is a must. I need to pass emmissions in pa. I was thinking of leaving the stock ecu connected less the fuel injectors and coils. I would also then have all the emmisions equipment still working...ie evap and other. The mass airflow sensor would also be hooked up to both computers.

I'm not sure how well the MAF will work hooked to the MS and the stock ECU. Also, MS2/extra does not yet have code to support a MAF. I intend to add code to do that sometime in the near future.

3. Keeping ths stock computer happy so that I dont have rich/lean codes is the next concern. I know people have doe this all before but how does the stock computer usually react to having no control on the fuel mixture. If i get codes then i cannot pass the sniffer.

This really depends on the computer. You should be able to keep the AFR pretty steady using EAE though.

4. Ignition timing control is something that i would like to do. Since the stock ecu is there I dont know if it would be better to use it to control the spark and use the megasquirt to control advance and retard. I am going to turbocharge the car. I am therefore going to need to have some way to retard spark based on the bosst pressure. Advance is not so much a concern. I could take the signal from the stock ecu and add a delay to the signal to give the retard. I dont know if this is a good idea or not.

You can't really use the MS to modify the stock ecu's ignition signals. Either the MS has full control of timing, or the stock ECU does. You'll need to find out what the crank and cam signals look like and tell us, because the current code might not support what's on that engine stock... If it's a pretty generic wheel setup you'll be fine, otherwise we'll have to write some code.

5. Idle control is probably just going to be the stock ecu.

Depending on the type of idle valve, the MS could control it. Sometimes when you try to control idle with the stock ECU, but you take over fuel and spark from the stock ECU, the idle will start oscillating, because many stock ECUs use fuel, spark, and the valve to control idle speed.

As you can see i am kind of lost and if i would have done some more research i most likely would have just gone with a emanage ultimate.

Most likely you'd be running into the same or similar problems with the emanage ultimate that you would with the MS, and you would've spent 4x more for the ECU.

Ken

[aduhaime2003]

Ok, First clarifications.

1. This will be a turbo app. 3-5 psi with stock internals first untill I am satisfied with how it performs then new pistons to drop the cr to 9.0-1 and boost to be raised to 10-12. gt28rs with a custom header and a very large intercooler with fans independantly controlled based on iat and750cc/min injectors. 255 lph fuel pump with a return style fuel system installed. Basically i am not concerned about the engine mechanically in this talk we are having. I have looked at all that already. I have all the hardware already and am currently installing the stuff.

2. The stock idle is pwm. I have already setup the ms-2 for fidle with a tip122 transistor. I will use this to control the idle considering what i just was told.

3. I will not be removing the ecu. This needs to stay in because i want my cruise control and all that other shnit. I WILL drive this car daily when i have proved it reliable.

4. I have not figured out what the trigger setup is on the car....Which brings up a question. What is the best way. I was going to try and count the teeth while i rotate it and look into the hole....i dunno

Anyway...I will look at the igniton this weekend. If I choose to take the maf sensor out completely what should I use to simulate the signal for the ecm. I was thinking that if I used the map signal(although it would be completely the wrong signal) It would at least give the ecm something to look at. I also was wondering if I should put some resistors in place of what I remove from the ecu. I know that there is feedback on the ignintion coils from the igniters so I need to come up with something there but I dont know if the injectors would need this as well. I appreciate all the help. I am really new to the system and I dont want to f-up too bad the first time out. Thanks

Also I know that there has been a very few places to find the schematics for these engines. I do have them all so if anyone needs them for this particular setup you can email me and i will send them.

[muythaibxr]

you could probably buy a shop manual from GM for this car.

Or see if you can find a shop manual for a Matrix XRS, as they're the same engine.

A shop manual would probably be the best place to find out what the trigger wheel setup looks like on that engine too.

You can leave in the stock MAF for the stock ECU to use, and just use the MAP sensor built into the MS for the MS.

Ken

[aduhaime2003]

I looked at the crank gear this weekend and it is strange. It felt like it was 36-2 and the 2 missing teeth were at the sensor-hole at the bottom of the stroke on pistons 1-4. Likewise they were the top for 2-3. Is this not going to work. I have no problem machining a mount for a new hall sensor if I can find a crank wheel somewhere. The problem is that i cannot see the hall sensor for the cams. They must be hidden inside the valve cover somehow. I am going to take the valve cover off anyway to powder coat it so i will look then, but I thought I would bring this up now. Regardless is it possible to setup the spark so that it just fires on both copression and exhaust. I dont know if this would be a potental problem due to the fact that with the vvt there is some overlap in some of the rpm range. I dont know if a backfire could be a posibility. I am pretty sure this is how early gm dis ignitio was setup but with 2 pulgs firing and the one with the lowest resistance getting the juice. The reason i asked is because if the cam gears turn out to be a strange setup as well i could have a problem setting up the system to use both crank and cam gears. This motor has no provisions for a distributor and the cam drive is chain so i cannot put a gear on either way.

[aduhaime2003]

I just found a manual for the 2zz in the celica site. The crankshaft angle is 34 teeth like i said and the camshaft is 1 tooth. Thier positions are not in the manuals.

[muythaibxr]

Could you post a picture?

[aduhaime2003]

the pictures are crap. They dont show detail. They are drawings that show general arrangements and the only nots i found were not very helpful. regardless here is the site where the manuals are. They are pdf and the ones that i looked at were in manual 2 section ig #8 and 13 I think.
http://www.newcelica.org/other/technica ... olume1.pdf
http://www.newcelica.org/other/technica ... olume2.pdf

[mad max]

... "I am pretty sure this is how early gm dis ignitio was setup but with 2 pulgs firing and the one with the lowest resistance getting the juice"...

i think its a serial circuit, one plugs at each end of the coil.
both plug fire simultaneously

[2001dodgeneonrt]

Any updates on this thread? I have a buddy wanting to MS his Elise with the 2zz engine and want to know if there was any success with this install

[2001dodgeneonrt]

Anyone?

[muythaibxr]

If someone could take a good picture of the crank/cam wheels from that engine, I'd be able to tell one way or the other if we can run it.

Ken

[2001dodgeneonrt]

Well he went ahead and bought the MS2 and jimstim. In a month or so we will be working on finding the wheel count and hopefully setting up the Lotus with a MS