Quick EAE question...

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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby Peter Florance » Fri May 30, 2008 5:38 pm

Keithg wrote:So, at the risk of appearing an idiot, does anyone feel like looking at these and giving me any hints... and no, I cannot increase # of squirts. I do have lag comp turned on, or have had. This is not a stomp, but a lift and accel.

KeithG

I think you don't want to move the throttle over that large a range of MAP. I'm having trouble figuring out where your Adhere to Walls is too high, but I think it's a little too high (not too much though). Try from cruise MAP to 70KPA or so, and back to cruise MAP. And maybe just a little slower.
Basic shape is good, but I think coming all the up from coasting to full throttle is too much to process mentally.

Take a look at my third screenshot and try to do that.
Also try to pick an RPM bin near the middle of your power band; if 2000 is it, great.
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby Peter Florance » Sat May 31, 2008 3:23 pm

Since replacing my LM1 with an LC1 and retuning the VE table, I'm back on it. There some weirdness at low kpa and I'm not sure that row of the VE table is well-tuned.

Tomorrow I'm going to turn EAE off and do some low and closed-thottle coasting to gather some data in those areas. Once that is done and I'll check the settings again. After tuning that part of the EAE curve, I'll feel that 3000 rpm is done. Then on to RPM correction curves (which I've played with a little bit to keep it driveable, but really haven't spent much time.

I suspect the lower ends of my Adhere-to and Sucked-from curves are probably not correct, so please do a reality check on your own car if you try to use any of my settings.

Car still drives really nice though. Better than ever actually.
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby Keithg » Tue Jun 03, 2008 4:10 pm

I put my old curves back in. Ok, I was able to try a less aggressive throttle movement this AM and log it. It seems to be decent on accel between 40-80 or so, but a decen from 70 to 20 gives a huge leanout that messes with the EGO. I am trying to do all this at 2000 rpm or close. These 2 logs (short) show a couple attempts. It is initially rich then goes lean on dropped throttle from 60-20. Does that say that more is being sucked form walls. Do I raise everything from 20-60 on SWC or AWC as well, or do I taper it (more at 60 than 20 and just move 20 a single tick). The big problem is not the rich blurp, but the huge lean out on dropped throttle from 80kpa or so. if it is 6--4-, it seems reasonably OK. I cannot seem to figure out how to have any effect on this. I have tried divergent curves, I have tried moving the curves up or down by 10 points. othing seems to get rid of the lean following the initial rich. I think I can tweak out the initial rich, eventually, but the big lean still remains.

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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby Peter Florance » Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:09 am

Keithg wrote:I put my old curves back in. Ok, I was able to try a less aggressive throttle movement this AM and log it. It seems to be decent on accel between 40-80 or so, but a decen from 70 to 20 gives a huge leanout that messes with the EGO. I am trying to do all this at 2000 rpm or close. These 2 logs (short) show a couple attempts. It is initially rich then goes lean on dropped throttle from 60-20. Does that say that more is being sucked form walls. Do I raise everything from 20-60 on SWC or AWC as well, or do I taper it (more at 60 than 20 and just move 20 a single tick). The big problem is not the rich blurp, but the huge lean out on dropped throttle from 80kpa or so. if it is 6--4-, it seems reasonably OK. I cannot seem to figure out how to have any effect on this. I have tried divergent curves, I have tried moving the curves up or down by 10 points. othing seems to get rid of the lean following the initial rich. I think I can tweak out the initial rich, eventually, but the big lean still remains.

KeithG

Can you turn off EGO correction for this tuning?
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby Peter Florance » Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:20 am

I think you need to start at a higher rpm. I would have been nice to see how the PW settle on throttle lift if you had a little more time (higher rpm and higher gear) to watch EAE settle to 100%

Are you 100% confident of you opening times? I'm thinking mine is a little low at 0.8msec.

Earlier in this thread Ken asked me if I was in overrun fuel cut and I'm not. I'm going to raise mine by 50usec and see how it does at overrun. My goal is the have VE perfect everywhere before resuming the tuning. At overrun it's not perfect and not predictable. Opening time?
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby Keithg » Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:37 am

Peter,

I'll see how it does at 3k. My car is a torque-y one, so 2k is a comfortable RPM to cruise around. As for opening time, I set it empirically. I guess I could get a probe on an injector and see what it is, actually. The way I set it was to try 2 squirts and 1 squirt at idle and have the VE not change. My opening time is 0.74 (or 0.72, I'd have to check the MSQ). Now, with 2 squirts, AFR wavers much more as my PW is much closer to the opening time or other dynamic effects, so, it could be off, but that was how I did it.

I keep screwing around with these curves and just seem to get nowhere. I have tried divergent (opposite slopes) I have moved them up and down the scale and flattened them and cannot seem to get the dropped throttle leanout to go away. I can get the initial rich slug to tune out, but the lean that follows has been my hex. On Accel I can get no leanout and no overshoot (at times) but on dropped throttle it just does not work. I had overrun turned off and worked hard to tune my lowest MAP bins at 20k. In the rpm range I am working in, I am pretty confident of those.

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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby hassmaschine » Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:12 pm

Keithg wrote:Peter,

I'll see how it does at 3k. My car is a torque-y one, so 2k is a comfortable RPM to cruise around. As for opening time, I set it empirically. I guess I could get a probe on an injector and see what it is, actually. The way I set it was to try 2 squirts and 1 squirt at idle and have the VE not change. My opening time is 0.74 (or 0.72, I'd have to check the MSQ). Now, with 2 squirts, AFR wavers much more as my PW is much closer to the opening time or other dynamic effects, so, it could be off, but that was how I did it.

I keep screwing around with these curves and just seem to get nowhere. I have tried divergent (opposite slopes) I have moved them up and down the scale and flattened them and cannot seem to get the dropped throttle leanout to go away. I can get the initial rich slug to tune out, but the lean that follows has been my hex. On Accel I can get no leanout and no overshoot (at times) but on dropped throttle it just does not work. I had overrun turned off and worked hard to tune my lowest MAP bins at 20k. In the rpm range I am working in, I am pretty confident of those.

Keith


I calculated the opening time of my injectors the same way, and arrived at 1.12ms for my 42# injectors. Recently, somebody called Ford and got detailed opening times (including voltage correction curves) and the spec is 1.13ms. so you're probably darn close.
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby muythaibxr » Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:33 am

Keith,

I think you're trying to change too many parameters at once.

You ABSOLUTELY must be systematic in your approach to tuning EAE. Tune at 1 small RPM range in a high gear, and get that right, then use the RPM curves to make it right everywhere else, choosing small RPM ranges each time. This is how I tune all the engines I've tuned, and it works every time.

If you can't get it right exactly, try adjusting the RPM curves slightly.

Also, to get a better idea of how to make the pulse-width do what you want it to do, test on the bench. Mess around with it until you can make the correction return to 100% at whatever rate you want, inject more, inject less, and do both of those on accel and decel.

I've explained what changes will have what effects, but sometimes it's the type of thing you have to see for yourself.

Ken
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby GintsK » Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:30 pm

Ken ,please, if possible post some msqs with successive EAE tuned.
I revert to normal AE. Mainly because of low rpm/cold engine problems. I can't found right settings too.

Gints
Some of my instalations:
VW TBI, VW 16V 60-2,
BMW M50 COPs 60-2, BMW M20 and M50 ITBs as Alpha-N, BMW M20 turbo Wasted spark
Opel 20XE Wasted Alpha-N with ITBs
Audi 10VT Audi20V
MR2 3S-GE.............
and over 100 tuned
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby Peter Florance » Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:22 pm

GintsK wrote:Ken ,please, if possible post some msqs with successive EAE tuned.
I revert to normal AE. Mainly because of low rpm/cold engine problems. I can't found right settings too.

Gints

I don't think it will help unless Ken has tuned a car like yours.

If it's for one of the BMW's you can try my adhered to and sucked from curves (posted earlier) and they may work (M20 better chance than m50)

But you should be running 6 squirts alternating and your VE map and warmup better be 100% correct first.

Like Ken advised Keith, you have to start in one small rpm range and work from their.

I used to do convergence adjustments on video projectors and find the logic similar:
Static (crosshair) first, then linearity and finally the corners. If you did it out of order, you ended up with adjustments that moved later or adjustments in their 'stops' and still needing to move more.
Peter Florance
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby muythaibxr » Fri Jun 06, 2008 2:49 pm

GintsK wrote:Ken ,please, if possible post some msqs with successive EAE tuned.
I revert to normal AE. Mainly because of low rpm/cold engine problems. I can't found right settings too.

Gints


I'll see if I can find one. None of my cars are up and running right now (one needs some rewiring, and the other is getting body work done, so the engine is on a stand).

Unless you have most of your other settings the same as mine, and you're running a similar engine to mine, it won't help though.

The closest thing I've tuned to your setup though is when I was still running normal speed density on a 20v 4age.

Ken
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby Peter Florance » Sat Jun 14, 2008 6:05 am

Slightly OT, but here's my old car running EAE on 2.0.1 at NASA autocross at Langley Speedway in Hampton VA.
It's a circle track where NASA uses part of the infield as well.

Required MS2Extra content: If you listen carefully before my launch, you can here the car cycle slightly, which it does until the oil is warm. I'm not sure it's EAE but rather a part of the VE table not sorted out. But the power is seemless and the car is a joy to drive (except the steering ratio - which is not an EAE problem).

Note I think I need more wedge for this track. NASCAR fans will get the poor joke. :)

http://www.firstfives.org/peter/autox_langley.wmv

It's about 5meg in-car video, so dial-up users beware.
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby mops » Sun Jun 15, 2008 2:03 pm

oh these are some awesome gear changes. My car should be back on the road within next few days and then new injectors/wasted spark conversion and then more tuning... this time i'll use multiply map feature and try to tune to 6 alt...
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby milesinfront » Sun Jun 15, 2008 6:41 pm

muythaibxr wrote:http://www.firstfives.org/peter/autox_langley.wmv
Congratulations! Throttle response sounded pretty crisp! I haven't touched my car for the last few weeks as I'm heavily working on my Brother's E30M52 project. I hope I can achieve similiar success, although to be honest I think that slow/smooth/grandma style conditions are the true test of EAE... :)
-1988 325is BMW M52B28 - > MS2 Extra n Spark (60-2 Wheel, Wasted COP, Single VANOS)
-2004 Opel Corsa C / Holden Barina Z18XE - > MS1 Extra n Spark (60-2 Wheel, Wasted COP)
-1976 Triumph Dolomite Sprint Race Car -> MS1 n 'EDIS'd
-1984 C1 2.3 Alpina -> MS2 Extra n Spark (60-2 Wheel)
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby Peter Florance » Mon Jun 16, 2008 2:46 am

Still driving like old lady (apologies to grandmothers everywhere) http://www.firstfives.org/peter/autox_acu4_june2008.wmv is yesterday's carnage.

Car has great power with an engine that probably has over 200K miles on the clock

No cones; thumping is 1/2" steps in concrete pads on the course.

I need to datalog one of these runs.

Promise to get back on track this week with more tuning. Let's see some other datalogs, folks!
Peter Florance
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby 73Inka2002 » Sun Jun 29, 2008 1:41 pm

I've been watching this thread evolve and I think it contains some good info. I'd like to see if I can summarize the process to ensure I understand:

1. Completely tune your VE table for steady-state operation - no deviation from target AFR under state-state driving conditions (use VE analyzer if needed)
2. Adjust "EAE Adhere-to-walls" and "EAE Sucked-from-walls" RPM corrections to 100% across the board (I found this in a different post)
3. Warm engine and drive on a flat surface in 4th gear at 3k RPM
4. Slowly open and close throttle to move MAP through a steady and predictable range - create a bell-shaped MAP curve in your logs (e.g. start at 40 kpa and slowly open the throttle until you reach 80 kpa and then slowly close throttle to return MAP reading to 40 kap)
5. Observe logs and tune "EAE Adhere-to-walls" and "EAE Sucked-from-walls" constraints in the 40 kpa to 80kpa range (based on example above) based on the following if/then statements (someone will need to help me on the if/then statements)
5a. If AFR deviates 'rich' from the target then x
5b. If AFR deviates 'lean' from the target then y
5c. If AFR first deviates 'rich' and then 'lean' then...
5d. etc
6. Rinse and repeat until the AFR no longer deviates from the target AFR at 3k RPM
7. Adjust remaining areas of the "EAE Adhere-to-walls" and "EAE Sucked-from-walls" curves until the entire curve is visually/geometrically (not numerically) equal to the newly tuned section
8. Adjust "EAE Adhere-to-walls" and "EAE Sucked-from-walls" RPM curves to adjust for any RPM-based deviations from target AFR
9. Enjoy your newly tuned EAE vehicle - post your success story here

Does that sound about right? If so, I think the thing I need are all the if/then statements so I know how to adjust for my particular observations. Are there any other preliminary steps like "Ensure injector open time is 100% accurate," etc?

Thanks everyone,
Robert
Car Info:1969 MK1 Ford Escort with 2.3L Cosworth Duratec

MS Info: MS3X, firmware 1.3.0, full sequential fuel and COP.
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby milesinfront » Sun Jun 29, 2008 2:00 pm

Running the maximum number of squirts possible for your engine/injector combination helps a lot! In effect it reduces the dependency on AE/EAE.

You have covered in which direction to adjust ATW & SFW values when mixture is rich or lean.

I still haven't made it to the finish line with EAE, but haven't had a chance to tune the car for about a month either...
-1988 325is BMW M52B28 - > MS2 Extra n Spark (60-2 Wheel, Wasted COP, Single VANOS)
-2004 Opel Corsa C / Holden Barina Z18XE - > MS1 Extra n Spark (60-2 Wheel, Wasted COP)
-1976 Triumph Dolomite Sprint Race Car -> MS1 n 'EDIS'd
-1984 C1 2.3 Alpina -> MS2 Extra n Spark (60-2 Wheel)
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby Keithg » Sun Jun 29, 2008 3:33 pm

Yes, this may be true, but in my case running the max number of squirts causes wavering AFR at idle. Not every install can run the max number of squirts. This was true when I had all injectors ganged on one channel and also as of this weekend when I was able to gang them in pairs. I am running 37 lb/hr injectors on a 2.0L and idle quality suffers when I run more than 1 simultaneous or 2 alternating. In a race car, this is probably not a concern, but in a driver, it is.

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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby mops » Sun Jun 29, 2008 4:52 pm

Yip, max number of squirts helps, because engine gets the right amount of fuel faster....

with minimal number of squirts, at low rpm, there's quite a long time between squirts... if you open the throttle quickly , chances are that next squirt (of the right amount) if one or more cylinder fills away, therefore until the next squirt you are getting not enough fuel. situation is compounded by air charging effect. single lean miss is noticeable.

ideal situation would be fully sequential injections (real culpit of MS and sadly router board is being delayed for *years* now), ideally with configurable end injection angle, so that every cylinder fill reflects most recent conditions.
Running multiple squirts per cycle is kinda like a cheap imitation of sequential injection, but we don't have any viable alternatives. I'm not saying it with anger but just saying how it is....

that's why i suggested what became lag compensation. preferably there would be an immediate accel shot, separate to normal scheduled injection, or extension of scheduled injection in progress, to deliver extra fuel immediately, via all injectors. but apparently this would be very difficult to code.

some stage later on this week i'll be fitting 370cc injectors onto my my m20 and we'll see how much squirts per cycle i'll be able to run ;)

regarding eae and unstable idle... people are suggesting disabling eae when idling, while the argument is that eae cannot be disabled cos it need to keep track of added fuel... .couldnt we 'castrate' eae in idle mode, so it still works and tracks fuel, BUT is not allowed to adjust PW's ?
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby Keithg » Sun Jun 29, 2008 7:04 pm

Mops,

Honestly, once EAE is adjusted *and* you have a decent VE map at idle, you really do not need to disable EAE. It just adjusts on the fly and even helps PWM idle control as out of tolerance AFR is the biggest problem we face at idle speeds.

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