Quick EAE question...

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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby milesinfront » Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:13 pm

Keithg wrote:Yes, this may be true, but in my case running the max number of squirts causes wavering AFR at idle.
Misunderstanding:- Run the max number of squirts that 'works' on your particular engine/injector combo. If more than 2 squirts makes your idle bad, then 2 is your max!
-1988 325is BMW M52B28 - > MS2 Extra n Spark (60-2 Wheel, Wasted COP, Single VANOS)
-2004 Opel Corsa C / Holden Barina Z18XE - > MS1 Extra n Spark (60-2 Wheel, Wasted COP)
-1976 Triumph Dolomite Sprint Race Car -> MS1 n 'EDIS'd
-1984 C1 2.3 Alpina -> MS2 Extra n Spark (60-2 Wheel)
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby Peter Florance » Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:16 pm

Keithg wrote:Mops,

Honestly, once EAE is adjusted *and* you have a decent VE map at idle, you really do not need to disable EAE. It just adjusts on the fly and even helps PWM idle control as out of tolerance AFR is the biggest problem we face at idle speeds.

KeithG


I tend to agree, although I still don't have a complete handle on EAE.

My idle is good when fully warm and oscillates a little when warming up. I'm sure that's due to the fact that I haven't completely fixed the low rpm area of rpm correction curves or the coolant correction curves (I plan to work on rpm curves first)
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby muythaibxr » Mon Jun 30, 2008 6:54 am

mops wrote:regarding eae and unstable idle... people are suggesting disabling eae when idling, while the argument is that eae cannot be disabled cos it need to keep track of added fuel... .couldnt we 'castrate' eae in idle mode, so it still works and tracks fuel, BUT is not allowed to adjust PW's ?


If everything is set up right, there should be no need to do anything different while idling. I haven't really tried to use it with anything that has crazy cams or a wild port setup (rotary) with EAE though.

As far as the "extra squirts" idea, if lag compensation just squirted extra fuel in, then it wouldn't be squirting the "commanded" amount of fuel. It would be incorrect. It's not that it was too hard to code, it's that it doesn't make sense to do.

I am going to at some point add code that extends the length of squirts already in progress though, and could pretty easily give the ability to try to end every squirt at a particular angle. I can't say when I'll be able to do that though, things are a bit hectic at work, and I'm trying to work on ms3 as well.

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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby Peter Florance » Mon Jun 30, 2008 6:45 pm

muythaibxr wrote:As far as the "extra squirts" idea, if lag compensation just squirted extra fuel in, then it wouldn't be squirting the "commanded" amount of fuel. It would be incorrect. It's not that it was too hard to code, it's that it doesn't make sense to do.

Ken


So if I understand correctly, the lag compensation doesn't changed the commanded fuel; just delivers it in smaller squirts to respond to changing needs sooner (rather than wait for next normal commanded squirt)?
Peter Florance
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby 73Inka2002 » Wed Jul 02, 2008 1:18 pm

Thanks everyone,

I updated the step-by-step with the 'maximum injections' recommendation. Does the process look good otherwise? Can it be distilled down to a series of "if this happens, then adjust this and that" statements? Otherwise I'm going to need to post a million comments that say "ok, now it's doing this, what do I do now...?"

1. Adjust “Injections per cycle” to maximum possible for your particular engine
2. Completely tune your VE table for steady-state operation - no deviation from target AFR under state-state driving conditions (use VE analyzer if needed)
3. Adjust "EAE Adhere-to-walls" and "EAE Sucked-from-walls" RPM corrections to 100% across the board (I found this in a different post)
4. Warm engine and drive on a flat surface in 4th gear at 3k RPM
5. Slowly open and close throttle to move MAP through a steady and predictable range - create a bell-shaped MAP curve in your logs (e.g. start at 40 kpa and slowly open the throttle until you reach 80 kpa and then slowly close throttle to return MAP reading to 40 kap)
6. Observe logs and tune "EAE Adhere-to-walls" and "EAE Sucked-from-walls" constraints in the 40 kpa to 80kpa range (based on example above) based on the following if/then statements (someone will need to help me on the if/then statements)
6a. If AFR deviates 'rich' from the target then x
6b. If AFR deviates 'lean' from the target then y
6c. If AFR first deviates 'rich' and then 'lean' then...
6d. etc
7. Rinse and repeat until the AFR no longer deviates from the target AFR at 3k RPM
8. Adjust remaining areas of the "EAE Adhere-to-walls" and "EAE Sucked-from-walls" curves until the entire curve is visually/geometrically (not numerically) equal to the newly tuned section
9. Adjust "EAE Adhere-to-walls" and "EAE Sucked-from-walls" RPM curves to adjust for any RPM-based deviations from target AFR
10. Enjoy your newly tuned EAE vehicle - post your success story here


Thanks,
Robert
Car Info:1969 MK1 Ford Escort with 2.3L Cosworth Duratec

MS Info: MS3X, firmware 1.3.0, full sequential fuel and COP.
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby Peter Florance » Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:09 pm

I only adjusted the RPM correction curves to be flat around the RPM bin that I was initially testing.
I found that the shape of Ken's default rpm correction curve is much better than no rpm correction and made it easier to live with the car while I was tuning it.

That may be counter to instructions, but it worked for me.
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby milesinfront » Wed Jul 02, 2008 8:28 pm

I just wanted to 'chime in' and report that I'm having some positive progress with tuning EAE. Accell is just about there, but Deaccell is still quite rich at times. Some time back I 'fooled' myself into thinking the opening time of my Bosch injectors was 0.69ms. I'm fairly sure that this is messing with EAE on over-run as mixtures become quite random when PW's go below 1.5ms. The 3 squirts per cycle is also a factors as it promotes the smaller PW's and therefore the reliance on accurate injector open times. I will probably change the open time back to 1.0ms and retune the VE table before pursuing EAE much further...

FYI:- I came to 0.69ms by trying various numbers until I found one that didn't change the AFR's much when changing squirts. This worked perfectly between 2 & 3 squirts, but strangely didn't work out between 2 & 1. I went with the figure anyway.... Dam I wish I had the gear to be able to actually measure the opening time so I could settle on a figure and then just get on with stuff!
-1988 325is BMW M52B28 - > MS2 Extra n Spark (60-2 Wheel, Wasted COP, Single VANOS)
-2004 Opel Corsa C / Holden Barina Z18XE - > MS1 Extra n Spark (60-2 Wheel, Wasted COP)
-1976 Triumph Dolomite Sprint Race Car -> MS1 n 'EDIS'd
-1984 C1 2.3 Alpina -> MS2 Extra n Spark (60-2 Wheel)
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby mops » Wed Jul 02, 2008 8:48 pm

milesinfront wrote:I just wanted to 'chime in' and report that I'm having some positive progress with tuning EAE. Accell is just about there, but Deaccell is still quite rich at times. Some time back I 'fooled' myself into thinking the opening time of my Bosch injectors was 0.69ms. I'm fairly sure that this is messing with EAE on over-run as mixtures become quite random when PW's go below 1.5ms. The 3 squirts per cycle is also a factors as it promotes the smaller PW's and therefore the reliance on accurate injector open times. I will probably change the open time back to 1.0ms and retune the VE table before pursuing EAE much further...

FYI:- I came to 0.69ms by trying various numbers until I found one that didn't change the AFR's much when changing squirts. This worked perfectly between 2 & 3 squirts, but strangely didn't work out between 2 & 1. I went with the figure anyway.... Dam I wish I had the gear to be able to actually measure the opening time so I could settle on a figure and then just get on with stuff!


hm.... I had similar results....
as in about 0.69 (have to check exacly), is the opening time that gives very similar afr between 1/2/3 squirts sim, 2/4/6 alt .... (at idle at least... it's different at load)....

I have some primitive equipment to measure it... basically bench-setup fuel rail with fuel pump and ms controlling it in injector testing mode.... I dont recall exacly what my results were but i thin kit was circa 1ms....

it is wierd.... aswell i had eae tuned pretty well at some stage.... i would be interested to see the shape of your curves.... post pic ?
BMW, 1985, E30, 325i, 2-door, 5spd. Lots of custom work. Turbo build in progress: http://www.e30tech.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55733
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby milesinfront » Wed Jul 02, 2008 9:04 pm

I don't have them at hand, but they do look like a train wreck! Weird... If I get to a point where I can say it's almost perfect, I'll be interested to see if it works as well on any other M20's. I suspect that the EAE curves are more port shape specific, rather than cam or capacity. If this is the case then I'm hoping my hard work may be of use to others as well. I hope so....My fuel consumption from testing is putting up Australia's already poor CO2/population levels! :lol:
-1988 325is BMW M52B28 - > MS2 Extra n Spark (60-2 Wheel, Wasted COP, Single VANOS)
-2004 Opel Corsa C / Holden Barina Z18XE - > MS1 Extra n Spark (60-2 Wheel, Wasted COP)
-1976 Triumph Dolomite Sprint Race Car -> MS1 n 'EDIS'd
-1984 C1 2.3 Alpina -> MS2 Extra n Spark (60-2 Wheel)
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby muythaibxr » Thu Jul 03, 2008 9:36 am

Peter Florance wrote:
muythaibxr wrote:As far as the "extra squirts" idea, if lag compensation just squirted extra fuel in, then it wouldn't be squirting the "commanded" amount of fuel. It would be incorrect. It's not that it was too hard to code, it's that it doesn't make sense to do.

Ken


So if I understand correctly, the lag compensation doesn't changed the commanded fuel; just delivers it in smaller squirts to respond to changing needs sooner (rather than wait for next normal commanded squirt)?



Delivers squirts more often but shorter pulsewidths to make up for squirting more often.

Ken
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby mops » Thu Aug 07, 2008 3:44 pm

Hey guys any update on this ?
I got my car to run again as of last night and went for a little ride. updated to 2.0.1 code, left eae setting mostly default with slight changes.
Left EAE on but as you might expect it's not behaving very well right now... well because it's untuned....

Just wanting to report that as I expected with those big low-z injectors my idle PW (with 2 alt) is 1.7ms, so I'm unsure whether i'll be able to run any more quirts... i might try 2 sim, but i'm really unsure....
BMW, 1985, E30, 325i, 2-door, 5spd. Lots of custom work. Turbo build in progress: http://www.e30tech.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55733
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby Keithg » Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:12 pm

mops wrote:Hey guys any update on this ?
I got my car to run again as of last night and went for a little ride. updated to 2.0.1 code, left eae setting mostly default with slight changes.
Left EAE on but as you might expect it's not behaving very well right now... well because it's untuned....

Just wanting to report that as I expected with those big low-z injectors my idle PW (with 2 alt) is 1.7ms, so I'm unsure whether i'll be able to run any more quirts... i might try 2 sim, but i'm really unsure....

Mops,

I am curious as to how you get on with this. At 1.7ms (my 337cc injectors at idle with 2 simultaneous or 4 alt) i get a wavering idle. AFR wavers and rpms waver. I have to have 1 simultaneous or 2 alt to get a decent idle quality. and my idle PW has to be more like 2.4. I also notice that cruise or dropped throttle causes very low PW and wavering AFR.

KeithG
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby mops » Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:28 pm

mmm...
even with small injectors i had unstable aft in low loads area, where there's very little air entering engine and pw's are very short. but my small injectros idle PW was under 4ms (2alt)...
I think in those low load/overrun conditions combustion is just unstable... oh high loads (not even high rpm) on the other hand i get very nice and steady afr reading...

sadly i cant drive my car much anytime soon, as i have to put a turbo on it ASAP so I can properly run in the engine. But i'll come back here and report.
BMW, 1985, E30, 325i, 2-door, 5spd. Lots of custom work. Turbo build in progress: http://www.e30tech.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55733
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby 73Inka2002 » Thu Aug 07, 2008 10:58 pm

To answer the "any updates on this" question:

I've been playing with EAE and I think it's great. However, I just can't get it to the point where I'm happy. Unfortunately my injectors are about 10" - 12" from the intake valve, and the way the GSX-R ITBs are coupled to the intake manifold allows a lot of fuel (I think) to collect in little nooks. I think this makes tuning AE to the extent that I want nearly impossible. I have most areas working really well, but on a sharp decel and then accel situation (like entering and exiting a fast turn for example) I get a big lean spike. If I add enough "stuck to walls" to try to overcome this, it gets too rich on normal AE events. So, I've decided to build a new intake manifold with the injectors firing directly at the back of the intake valves. I'm hoping this gets me closer to the type of driveability I'm looking for. Then, EAE should play a much smaller role - at least I hope...

Neat stuff, but I'm pretty frustrated at this point...
Robert
Car Info:1969 MK1 Ford Escort with 2.3L Cosworth Duratec

MS Info: MS3X, firmware 1.3.0, full sequential fuel and COP.
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby Peter Florance » Fri Aug 08, 2008 6:17 am

mops wrote:Hey guys any update on this ?
I got my car to run again as of last night and went for a little ride. updated to 2.0.1 code, left eae setting mostly default with slight changes.
Left EAE on but as you might expect it's not behaving very well right now... well because it's untuned....

Just wanting to report that as I expected with those big low-z injectors my idle PW (with 2 alt) is 1.7ms, so I'm unsure whether i'll be able to run any more quirts... i might try 2 sim, but i'm really unsure....

Something that might help is to run less spark advance at idle. That will normally force you to open the throttle a little and make things more stable.
Peter Florance
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60-2 Wheel LS2 Coils, Low Z Inj
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby milesinfront » Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:09 pm

I'm back into EAE and found this quote to be very similiar to my own experience:-
73Inka2002 wrote:I have most areas working really well, but on a sharp decel and then accel situation (like entering and exiting a fast turn for example) I get a big lean spike. If I add enough "stuck to walls" to try to overcome this, it gets too rich on normal AE events.
I still haven't figured out the 'push/pull' effect of the ATW & SFW tables, but I'm hoping I will eventually 'nail it'.

I'm finding that after a long decel (100-25kpa) EAE% drops to like 80%, but takes way to long to return to 100%, so AFR's go to 18:1 for almost 2 secs. During this long lean event, MAP is quite steady at 25kpa, so why is EAE% not 100%???
-1988 325is BMW M52B28 - > MS2 Extra n Spark (60-2 Wheel, Wasted COP, Single VANOS)
-2004 Opel Corsa C / Holden Barina Z18XE - > MS1 Extra n Spark (60-2 Wheel, Wasted COP)
-1976 Triumph Dolomite Sprint Race Car -> MS1 n 'EDIS'd
-1984 C1 2.3 Alpina -> MS2 Extra n Spark (60-2 Wheel)
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby Peter Florance » Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:23 am

milesinfront wrote:I'm back into EAE and found this quote to be very similiar to my own experience:-
73Inka2002 wrote:I have most areas working really well, but on a sharp decel and then accel situation (like entering and exiting a fast turn for example) I get a big lean spike. If I add enough "stuck to walls" to try to overcome this, it gets too rich on normal AE events.
I still haven't figured out the 'push/pull' effect of the ATW & SFW tables, but I'm hoping I will eventually 'nail it'.

I'm finding that after a long decel (100-25kpa) EAE% drops to like 80%, but takes way to long to return to 100%, so AFR's go to 18:1 for almost 2 secs. During this long lean event, MAP is quite steady at 25kpa, so why is EAE% not 100%???

Can you post a log and MSQ?

I would guess that the code thinks more fuel is being sucked from walls than is really entering the airstream. So it's waiting for the pool size to stabilize?

Mabye try smaller SFW at 25kpa and see what the effect is?

Ken mentioned that that EAE could be tested on the stim; this is the first place where the lightbulb went off in my head and I realized how. You should be able to test this with syringe and stim and see how the code reacts AFA PW.
Peter Florance
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby mops » Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:54 pm

my car has been main off the road recently, as i'm fabricating a turbo kit
but anyways... last tim ei drove it i set it for just normal ae...

and then i set accel time to 0.3ms and decay to 0.3 also, (up from 0.2 and 0.1 default) and just by doing that i get much better response. I have not drove alot on high rpm's so i'm unsure how rich it will be there... but with right ae scaling it might be doable...
I'm tempted to increase it even further, to 0.4/0.4 ms with 0.1ms end PW

I know there was a feature in *some* MS1/e code that changed those values to number of engine cycles, not miliseconds.
i think in case of long running m20 that could be beneficial.... to set AW to last, say 10 cycles of the engine.

I have to go the low-z injector mod and i got issues with spare ports that i need to sort out before i blow the engine...
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby muythaibxr » Sun Nov 09, 2008 8:11 pm

The main thing that makes EAE tough to tune in the "quick movement" situations is the fact that VE lookup and EAE lookup lag behind actual engine conditions for the entire transient event. That's why squirting more often during those events helps fix the problem... it gets the required fuel for the transient to the engine faster. However, it can only do it so fast because it's using MAP.

I have some ideas to speed it up using TPS along with MAP however, and will probably get to those sometime in the next month or two. In the meantime, for most of the engines I've used, EAE is much smoother in the "normal-driving" situations, and close to the same quick-stab response if tuned "just right."

Ken
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby Black99rt » Fri Nov 14, 2008 10:18 am

What kind of MAP thresholds are common for AE or I would guess EAE with lag comp? I'm afraid mine is particularly noisely as it seems I need over 200kpa/sec threashold to mask noise under boost. Should I look into mechanically filtering the line?

Base EAE settings work for casual driving, stomps are hopeless and I might as well have turned the ignition off.
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