Quick EAE question...

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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby Peter Florance » Sat May 10, 2008 12:26 pm

milesinfront wrote:Yes I've read about it, but never experienced it first hand:- Upping the number of squirts dramatically reduces the dependence on AE. I had to seriously back of my AE settings...

Down side to 6 squirts is my LM1 readings really get jumpy. I'm not running huge injectors, but they seems to be big enough to make tuning over-run semi impossible. Changing the VE table by one unit is the difference between 17:1 and 12:1 AFR... I'm sure the fact that my O2 sensor is sniffing only one cylinder isn't helping things much... It could also possibly be noise due to the extra injector pulses...

How do I get the initial EAE settings back without re-flashing MS?


You should be able to do some smoothing on the LM1, but I really think you need to sample more than one cylinder.
I'm sampling only 3 and I am concerned about it. If you turn off EAE is the LM1 still noisy?

Can you post a datalog?

To get back EAE settings, I exported my spark fuel and AFR tables and then went offline. Read in older MSQ and imported the tables again. I would be nice to be able to export and import the EAE settings in case we painted ourselves into a corner. But the above method is fine for me.
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby milesinfront » Sat May 10, 2008 5:26 pm

I haven't even turned EAE back on yet. I'm probably doing all the things I should have done from day one...

After trying all the possible squirt combinations I've found that 2 squirts simultainious is giving me the smoothest AFR readings. I think this will put more demand on EAE than 3 sim or 6 alt, but should make it noticeably better on EAE than 2 alt...

So now I go back to the car, polish my VE table for 2 sim, then revisit EAE! :|
-1988 325is BMW M52B28 - > MS2 Extra n Spark (60-2 Wheel, Wasted COP, Single VANOS)
-2004 Opel Corsa C / Holden Barina Z18XE - > MS1 Extra n Spark (60-2 Wheel, Wasted COP)
-1976 Triumph Dolomite Sprint Race Car -> MS1 n 'EDIS'd
-1984 C1 2.3 Alpina -> MS2 Extra n Spark (60-2 Wheel)
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby Peter Florance » Sat May 10, 2008 6:22 pm

milesinfront wrote:I haven't even turned EAE back on yet. I'm probably doing all the things I should have done from day one...

After trying all the possible squirt combinations I've found that 2 squirts simultainious is giving me the smoothest AFR readings. I think this will put more demand on EAE than 3 sim or 6 alt, but should make it noticeably better on EAE than 2 alt...

So now I go back to the car, polish my VE table for 2 sim, then revisit EAE! :|


Good stuff
How much advance are you running at idle?
Peter Florance
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby milesinfront » Sat May 10, 2008 8:36 pm

~17 degrees @ 950rpm (usual idle) & 20+ degrees @ 600 (help prevent stalling). The advance is a little more retarded than I'd like, but I have trouble keeping the idle under 1000 rpm. There must be a small vac leak somewhere, but I can't find it. It may possibly be some wear in the valve guides... Idle map is around ~50-55kpa.
-1988 325is BMW M52B28 - > MS2 Extra n Spark (60-2 Wheel, Wasted COP, Single VANOS)
-2004 Opel Corsa C / Holden Barina Z18XE - > MS1 Extra n Spark (60-2 Wheel, Wasted COP)
-1976 Triumph Dolomite Sprint Race Car -> MS1 n 'EDIS'd
-1984 C1 2.3 Alpina -> MS2 Extra n Spark (60-2 Wheel)
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby Peter Florance » Sun May 11, 2008 8:07 am

milesinfront wrote:~17 degrees @ 950rpm (usual idle) & 20+ degrees @ 600 (help prevent stalling). The advance is a little more retarded than I'd like, but I have trouble keeping the idle under 1000 rpm. There must be a small vac leak somewhere, but I can't find it. It may possibly be some wear in the valve guides... Idle map is around ~50-55kpa.


This is on the C1?
I'm suprised you need that much advance for a high compression motor like that. Is the cam pretty mild?

I run 14 degrees on my m30b34, but it does have a very short duration cam (260 or 262)


I idle about 37 kpa; again very short cam, so that data may not be helpful in your case.
Peter Florance
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby muythaibxr » Sun May 11, 2008 3:11 pm

Peter Florance wrote:
milesinfront wrote:
Dam you all for sucking me back into EAE!!!! :twisted:


You're welcome. That's what we're here for.

Just a thought: take a look at my rpm correction curves, set to for inital tuning. They seem to work ok to allow me to concentrate on tuning the midrange EAE.
I suspect once you go to 6 sqrts and fine tune your VE, it should feel pretty good with default Adheare to and Suck from settings . I haven't changed that far from Ken's values. I suspect it's because they must track some basic physical laws that don't seem to vary as much as one would suspect. Also as Ken as suggested, a little change goes a long way.

I freaks me out to glance down at my LM1 wideband. It moves so little as I drive, I think it's broken. :shock:

This is really great software, Ken.


Glad it's working out for you.

milesinfront:

Remember when I suggested upping your number of squirts? :P

Ken
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby milesinfront » Sun May 11, 2008 7:13 pm

Peter Florance wrote:Remember when I suggested upping your number of squirts?
I don't actually, but it wouldn't surprise me... :oops:

Peter Florance wrote:I'm suprised you need that much advance for a high compression motor like that. Is the cam pretty mild?
I'm not aware of the specs, but Alpina have always sold the notion of more power with no loss in driveability. They did change the chamber shape and used domed pistons in these motors too. I'd say the 50-55kpa idle is the best indication of how mild/wild the cam is. The VE table also shows the stong peak in VE at 4200 rpm... There's also a VERY sudden peak at ~2,400. I'm sure this is the effect of the long intake runners coming into tune. I reckon if there was an easy way to shorten the intake runners to match the peak torque at 4,200 I'd be good for nearly 200hp... :D

How's your EAE going? After changing to 2-sim and micro polishing my VE table, AE is doing a great job! Still wanna have another crack at EAE though...
-1988 325is BMW M52B28 - > MS2 Extra n Spark (60-2 Wheel, Wasted COP, Single VANOS)
-2004 Opel Corsa C / Holden Barina Z18XE - > MS1 Extra n Spark (60-2 Wheel, Wasted COP)
-1976 Triumph Dolomite Sprint Race Car -> MS1 n 'EDIS'd
-1984 C1 2.3 Alpina -> MS2 Extra n Spark (60-2 Wheel)
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby Peter Florance » Sun May 11, 2008 8:13 pm

milesinfront wrote:
Peter Florance wrote:I'm suprised you need that much advance for a high compression motor like that. Is the cam pretty mild?
I'm not aware of the specs, but Alpina have always sold the notion of more power with no loss in driveability. They did change the chamber shape and used domed pistons in these motors too. I'd say the 50-55kpa idle is the best indication of how mild/wild the cam is. The VE table also shows the stong peak in VE at 4200 rpm... There's also a VERY sudden peak at ~2,400. I'm sure this is the effect of the long intake runners coming into tune. I reckon if there was an easy way to shorten the intake runners to match the peak torque at 4,200 I'd be good for nearly 200hp... :D

How's your EAE going? After changing to 2-sim and micro polishing my VE table, AE is doing a great job! Still wanna have another crack at EAE though...



It seems to run pretty well even though I haven't finished the top end of the adhere to and sucked from. I went ahead and set the rpm corrects back to default and they feel pretty good. No oscillations at idle at all. Actually idle is better than with MS1 but these M30b34 aren't known for Camry like idle. :(

Tomorrow night I'm going to finish the basic adjustments at the top end using my 3000 rpm area and them start checking the rpm corrections. I suspect I will have to do very little to make it perfect. It seems that the basic settings aren't far off when using 6 squirts alt for 6 cylinder motor.

When you tune idle VE on yours, you just tune for best idle, yes? I bet that car will want to idle fairly rich.

If Monday pm is successful, I'll post a drive to work datalog tue morning. It will probably not be perfect but I bet it will be tter than MS1 ever was. I'm autocrossing Suday and want to try this code.
BTW, I loaded the newest code tonight and for me it doesn't feel any different.
Peter Florance
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby milesinfront » Mon May 12, 2008 4:26 pm

Peter Florance wrote:but these M30b34 aren't known for Camry like idle.
Yeah my Dad had a 535 a few years back, and while the idle didn't move around, it did make some strange vibrations. The Alpina is a little similar, and my wife's M20B20 320i Auto...

milesinfront wrote:When you tune idle VE on yours, you just tune for best idle, yes? I bet that car will want to idle fairly rich.
No, I'm a gauge kinda guy... I know what I want the gauge to read, then adjust the car to suit. I've never noticed any major difference in idle quality unless things are REALLY rich or lean. But like I said before, I have more trouble keeping my idle down than trying to get it up. (too much idle viagra??? :lol: ) I never found a leak, but If I seal up my closed ICV the car nearly stalls, and the same happens if I seal the throttle body. So between the ICV and throttle enough air is passing by to keep my warm idle ~950-1000 rpm. This isn't too much of a problem, but does tend to make the car 'buck' on over-run at about 1300-1500 rpm. Datalogs only record the bucking as rpm movement. AFR's stay normal... Similar bucking, but far worse when I was running L-Jet with a Throttle Switch that wasn't switching to closed.

I will probably turn EAE back on this weekend. Glad to hear yours is working right! As my car is basically just a toy/garage ornament I have trouble justifying to my wife the amount of time I spend tuning. I keep telling her its a hobby, but she doesn't understand.... :lol:
-1988 325is BMW M52B28 - > MS2 Extra n Spark (60-2 Wheel, Wasted COP, Single VANOS)
-2004 Opel Corsa C / Holden Barina Z18XE - > MS1 Extra n Spark (60-2 Wheel, Wasted COP)
-1976 Triumph Dolomite Sprint Race Car -> MS1 n 'EDIS'd
-1984 C1 2.3 Alpina -> MS2 Extra n Spark (60-2 Wheel)
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby Peter Florance » Mon May 12, 2008 4:41 pm

milesinfront wrote:
Peter Florance wrote:but these M30b34 aren't known for Camry like idle.
Yeah my Dad had a 535 a few years back, and while the idle didn't move around, it did make some strange vibrations. The Alpina is a little similar, and my wife's M20B20 320i Auto...



the b34 have pretty loud piston slap when cold. I thought mine was bad until I was in the parking garage at a 5erFest. 50 or 60 e28 535is cars warming up; it was a piston slap choir.. :lol:



milesinfront wrote:
Peter Florance wrote:When you tune idle VE on yours, you just tune for best idle, yes? I bet that car will want to idle fairly rich.
No, I'm a gauge kinda guy... I know what I want the gauge to read, then adjust the car to suit. I've never noticed any major difference in idle quality unless things are REALLY rich or lean. But like I said before, I have more trouble keeping my idle down than trying to get it up. (too much idle viagra??? :lol: ) I never found a leak, but If I seal up my closed ICV the car nearly stalls, and the same happens if I seal the throttle body. So between the ICV and throttle enough air is passing by to keep my warm idle ~950-1000 rpm. This isn't too much of a problem, but does tend to make the car 'buck' on over-run at about 1300-1500 rpm. Datalogs only record the bucking as rpm movement. AFR's stay normal... Similar bucking, but far worse when I was running L-Jet with a Throttle Switch that wasn't switching to closed.

I will probably turn EAE back on this weekend. Glad to hear yours is working right! As my car is basically just a toy/garage ornament I have trouble justifying to my wife the amount of time I spend tuning. I keep telling her its a hobby, but she doesn't understand.... :lol:


You can tell i'm not married. :)

I keep thinking you are running too much advance and not enough ICV for the idle to be stable. You might try opening up the valve a little and then bring the advance down and see if it is more stable. If you can ever get to 6 squirts (I did from 2 batch but had to retune) you won't believe how smooth it is.
Peter Florance
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby milesinfront » Mon May 12, 2008 7:06 pm

milesinfront wrote:If you can ever get to 6 squirts (I did from 2 batch but had to retune) you won't believe how smooth it is.
The car was very smooth and idled well on 6-alt, but the AFR's in the datalogs were much more spikey than at 3 sim. Is there really much difference between 3 sim and 6 alt? Both give 3 squirts per cyliner per cycle right? (per cycle or per 360deg?)

milesinfront wrote:I keep thinking you are running too much advance and not enough ICV for the idle to be stable.
The car has been on MS for about 4 years now. Being the gauge man that I am, I was initally not happy with the 1100rpm idle. I didn't have an ICV in the early days, so the idle would vary quite a bit depending on the current conditions. After adding the ICV I still wasn't happy with the idle varations. At one stage I got the desired idle by retarding the ignition down to around 10 degrees. This made the idle steady, but weak. The A/C compressor would always stall the engine when coming back to neutral while slowing down. Certainly the closed loop idle on MS1 wasn't much help. MS2 seems much better, but my car only uses it for a few minutes during warm up, then natural idle is just above closed loop control. I also added an air valve to the A/C circuit, but I'm thinking this may no longer be necessary due to the better MS2 idle control. (PID idle control, another MS2 thing I haven't really played with yet... :RTFM: )
-1988 325is BMW M52B28 - > MS2 Extra n Spark (60-2 Wheel, Wasted COP, Single VANOS)
-2004 Opel Corsa C / Holden Barina Z18XE - > MS1 Extra n Spark (60-2 Wheel, Wasted COP)
-1976 Triumph Dolomite Sprint Race Car -> MS1 n 'EDIS'd
-1984 C1 2.3 Alpina -> MS2 Extra n Spark (60-2 Wheel)
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby mops » Mon May 12, 2008 9:13 pm

I'm glad there's some progress....

sadly i wont have the luxury of 6 squirts sim.... I'll try to tune to 4 alt... My car is still at least 2 weeks away... and them i have to change injectors, and convert to wasted spark and put a turbo on it and new exhaust and then i'll be able to go for a long tuning session...

here's also a VERY sudden peak at ~2,400. I'm sure this is the effect of the long intake runners coming into tune.


Yip, i have that too with stock m20b25.... looks very wierd. It's very sharp too.
BMW, 1985, E30, 325i, 2-door, 5spd. Lots of custom work. Turbo build in progress: http://www.e30tech.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55733
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby milesinfront » Mon May 12, 2008 9:29 pm

milesinfront wrote:Yip, i have that too with stock m20b25.... looks very wierd. It's very sharp too.
Yes, my VE table goes something like 2300,2400,2500 and there's still a spike of about 8% VE. I suspect this would make more sense with a standard cam peaking at around 3,000-3,500 rpm. You can really feel it when driving around...
mops wrote:sadly i wont have the luxury of 6 squirts sim.... I'll try to tune to 4 alt...
It's 6 alt... 4 alt? On a 6 cylinder? :roll:
-1988 325is BMW M52B28 - > MS2 Extra n Spark (60-2 Wheel, Wasted COP, Single VANOS)
-2004 Opel Corsa C / Holden Barina Z18XE - > MS1 Extra n Spark (60-2 Wheel, Wasted COP)
-1976 Triumph Dolomite Sprint Race Car -> MS1 n 'EDIS'd
-1984 C1 2.3 Alpina -> MS2 Extra n Spark (60-2 Wheel)
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby Peter Florance » Mon May 12, 2008 10:31 pm

hmmm.... no real progress tonight. Just some nasty clunking from right rear. I think one of the CV joints has some loose bolts (if I'm lucky) so I will need to take a break for a few days. :x

It was going like stink though
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby milesinfront » Mon May 12, 2008 10:39 pm

Peter Florance wrote: It was going like stink though
Probably a bad cat converter.... :-P
-1988 325is BMW M52B28 - > MS2 Extra n Spark (60-2 Wheel, Wasted COP, Single VANOS)
-2004 Opel Corsa C / Holden Barina Z18XE - > MS1 Extra n Spark (60-2 Wheel, Wasted COP)
-1976 Triumph Dolomite Sprint Race Car -> MS1 n 'EDIS'd
-1984 C1 2.3 Alpina -> MS2 Extra n Spark (60-2 Wheel)
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby Peter Florance » Tue May 13, 2008 5:01 am

milesinfront wrote:
Peter Florance wrote: It was going like stink though
Probably a bad cat converter.... :-P


note I didn't say it was stinking when it was going, which is a different problem. :D


I'm hoping it's nothing worse than loose bolts.
:?
Peter Florance
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81 BMW Euro 528i ESP Car
60-2 Wheel LS2 Coils, Low Z Inj
Co-Driver 1999 BMW E46 DSP car.
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby Peter Florance » Tue May 13, 2008 6:41 am

Peter Florance wrote:

I'm hoping it's nothing worse than loose bolts.
:?


Lug nuts needed torquing.

I thought I was going to hear that country music song: "You picked a fine time to leave me, loose-wheel...."

Back on topic; datalog on the way home suggest that Adhere to Walls rpm correction curve for 2000 rpm needs to be changed from 85 to 81, making the curve a little flatter; it's rich on increasing throttle and lean on decreasing.

Will advise..
thanks!

Peter
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby Peter Florance » Thu May 22, 2008 8:59 pm

Brough the 2000 rpm Adhere to Walls and sucked from walls correction down. Probably should have left the sucked from walls alone.
Here's the 2000 rpm test tonight
Peter Florance
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby milesinfront » Fri May 23, 2008 12:26 am

Looks pretty good! I doubt your 'but-o-meter' would feel any further improvements to the AFR's! What's it like at other RPMs?
-1988 325is BMW M52B28 - > MS2 Extra n Spark (60-2 Wheel, Wasted COP, Single VANOS)
-2004 Opel Corsa C / Holden Barina Z18XE - > MS1 Extra n Spark (60-2 Wheel, Wasted COP)
-1976 Triumph Dolomite Sprint Race Car -> MS1 n 'EDIS'd
-1984 C1 2.3 Alpina -> MS2 Extra n Spark (60-2 Wheel)
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Re: Quick EAE question...

Postby Peter Florance » Fri May 23, 2008 4:48 am

milesinfront wrote:Looks pretty good! I doubt your 'but-o-meter' would feel any further improvements to the AFR's! What's it like at other RPMs?

Not sure. I'm going against my usual tendencies and trying to be somewhat systematic about how I adjust this. :P I'm going to try 4k and see what direction the curves take.


It feels pretty darn good.
I rode in an e30 with the same motor I have in it and 4.10 rear end (I have stock 3.45) and my car, 300 lbs heavier, felt quicker and stronger (and much smoother). :yeah!:

To me Motronic 1.0 and 1.1 feel crude compared to this code base (really even to well tuned MS1Extra).

If it wasn't for the unfortunate, but needed 2-3 gear shift to make it to 60mph, I bet this car would have not bad 0-60 times for an old lump. I may check with Gtech this weekend anyway.
Peter Florance
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