'99-'00 Miata crank / cam inputs

All questions about MS2/Microsquirt/Microsquirt module. See also MS2/Extra manuals

Moderators: jsmcortina, muythaibxr

Post Reply
Joe Perez
Experienced MS/Extra'er
Posts: 181
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:19 pm
Location: San Diego, CA
Contact:

'99-'00 Miata crank / cam inputs

Post by Joe Perez »

I'm in the process of assembling an MS2 for a friend of mine who has a '99 engine in his '92 Miata. In looking through the documentation on the MS2 Extra site, something has me very puzzled. Specifically, here is the page in question: http://www.msextra.com/ms2extra/MS2-Ext ... htm#wiring.

According to this, the crank sensor is fed into the VR input section of the MS, and a second VR input is constructed using an LM1815N to accept the cam sensor. The thing is, the NB Miatas ('99-'05) do not use VR sensors- they're hall effect.

Both the cam and crank sensors on these cars have an open-collector output which is pulled up externally by the ECU- basically the same as the dual-wheel CAS on their '90-'97 counterparts (the 4G63 sensor). I can understand how maybe it could be made to operate if the sensors were pulled up and the zero-crossing setpoints in the VR detectors were set to some level above ground, however the circuits as presented in the MS2E docs do not even have a pullup.

Have the good folks of the MS2E community been sampling some of our fine California pharmaceuticals, or am I missing something epicly obvious?

Attached are schematics and diagnostic scope traces for both sensors, taken from Mazda's official Factory Service Manual for the '00 Miata:

Image Image
Image
Joe Perez
Experienced MS/Extra'er
Posts: 181
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:19 pm
Location: San Diego, CA
Contact:

Re: '99-'00 Miata crank / cam inputs

Post by Joe Perez »

Bump, as the issue keeps coming up on the Miata forums. Anybody?
jsmcortina
Site Admin
Posts: 39617
Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 1:34 am
Location: Birmingham, UK
Contact:

Re: '99-'00 Miata crank / cam inputs

Post by jsmcortina »

The docs we had suggests that some of the Miatas used a VR I thought...

However, from what you say, yes you should indeed mimic the 4G63 input wiring.

Please let us know how you get on and I'll get the manuals updated.

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
New users, please read the "Forum Help Page".
Joe Perez
Experienced MS/Extra'er
Posts: 181
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:19 pm
Location: San Diego, CA
Contact:

Re: '99-'00 Miata crank / cam inputs

Post by Joe Perez »

1996 was the first year that Mazda installed a crankshaft wheel on the Miata, though it was used purely for OBD-II misfire detection. The '96 and '97 models do have a raw VR sensor on the crank for this purpose. However, they also still have the same 4/2 (4G63) CAS as the older models, which continues to be the primary trigger for spark and fuel. These cars could still be (and usually are) wired and configured identically to the '90-'95 models. Alternately, if you want the extra precision offered by the crankwheel, it would be possible to do a hybrid input system on these two years, with the VR input driving the primary trigger as raw VR and the 2 hole portion of the CAS driving the secondary trigger as open-collector. I've not tried this configuration, however my instinct is that the '99 software settings would still work in that mode, assuming the second trigger doesn't mind being single-single as opposed to double-single. Someone with a '96 or '97 would need to verify the tooth orientation on the wheel, as I'm not sure they conform to the same degree standard as the later cars. Certainly however, the most common configuration on '96 and '97 is to wire and configure them exactly as a '90-'95, and ignore the crankwheel.

Ok, enough speculation.

In '99 (there was no '98 in the US, and in other countries the '98 was a held-over '97), when they restyled the car, they also changed the trigger mechanism. The 4G63 CAS was eliminated, and the new-style crank and cam sensors were installed. Both of these sensors have open-collector outputs- they are not VR sensors.

There's been ongoing debate on the MiataTurbo.net forum as to the best way of dealing with these sensors. Initially, most '99+ owners elected to install a CAS from an earlier car- there is still a provision for it on the head and the cam- and configure it just like a '90-'97 car. Abe Mira was one of the early pioneers of installing an MS2 on an NB ('99-'05) Miata. Initially, he built input circuits for it that were just like those specified in DIYAutoTune's writeup for the earlier cars, which can be seen here: http://www.diyautotune.com/tech_article ... _miata.htm Basically, just the stock hall effect input and a simple resistor/capacitor secondary input, unbuffered, straight into the CPU. He had considerable problems with this setup, misfires and lost sync. He took it upon himself to reverse-engineer the inputs on the OEM ECU, and came up with a circuit that worked perfectly using a dual JFET op-amp. I have reproduced that circuit in clean schematic form with the appropriate pinout, and it's linked to below. Feel free to copy this and use it in the documentation.

Image


One last area of puzzlement for me is that throughout the MS2Extra documentation, as well as within Megatune, the later Miata is referred to as "99-00" only, to the exclusion of the '01-'05 cars. I'm not absolutely 100% certain on this point as I've never personally scoped an '01+ Miata, however I strongly believe that they use the exact same sensors and trigger layout as the '99-'00 cars. I wonder if someone knows why this is stated the way it is? Certainly the '01+ cars have the additional complication of variable intake cam timing not present on the '99-'00, however I suspect that this could be easily overcome, either by pinning the came in place (this is known to work) or by using the EBC driver in open-loop mode to control the VVT solenoid. That's a job for someone else, as I don't have an '01+ at my disposal to experiment with. Pretty much everything else about those cars is identical to their earlier ('99-'00) brethren.

For reference, here is the original thread where we've been hashing this out: http://www.miataturbo.net/forum/showthread.php?t=22530 Note that many of the drawings in that thread are speculative and/or just plain wrong.
jsmcortina
Site Admin
Posts: 39617
Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 1:34 am
Location: Birmingham, UK
Contact:

Re: '99-'00 Miata crank / cam inputs

Post by jsmcortina »

The area of puzzlement is because we can only work on the info we have. The trigger wheel pictures I had said 99-00, so that's what I used! This (mis) information then got into the manuals.
Additional information and corrections are always welcome.

I still find it very odd that the Miata needs that special input circuit when so many other vehicles with apparently similar sensors do not.

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
New users, please read the "Forum Help Page".
Joe Perez
Experienced MS/Extra'er
Posts: 181
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:19 pm
Location: San Diego, CA
Contact:

Re: '99-'00 Miata crank / cam inputs

Post by Joe Perez »

jsmcortina wrote:I still find it very odd that the Miata needs that special input circuit when so many other vehicles with apparently similar sensors do not.
Indeed, I have little to offer in that area.

My own personal experience in this regard was with my '92, having the 4G63 sensor. I initially built my input circuit exactly as per DIY's instructions. This gave me chronic misfires in the 3 to 5,000 RPM range, usually under high load. Retrofitting a Toyota coil-on-plug system onto the car and gapping the plugs down to about .020" eliminated the whole ignition system as a suspect, yet the problem continued.

I made several changes to the circuit, initially limited to experimentation with various caps and resistors and later using various devices like Schmitt trigger optos. Some reduced (but did not eliminate) the occurrence of such events, others made it worse. At one point I was nearly (but not entirely) misfire-free, yet had so much trigger latency as a result of massive caps that I exceeded the MSs "hardware latency" correction capacity. I was never able to actually capture a misfire event on the scope, unfortunately. I'll note that this CAS worked perfectly with the OEM ECU.

Personally, I solved it by trashing the CAS and building the 36-1 wheel setup you see in my avatar. But others had similar problems with cars of various years, culminating with Abe's stellar work on reverse-engineering the factory circuit and building one that really seemed to work. My suspicion is that this would probably be an ideal input circuit for all Miatas, though I never got a chance to try it on my car. I will note that the physical wire routing with regards to the Miata's trigger inputs is fairly grotesque. The lines are totally unshielded and run quite a ways through the same bundle that carries the injector drive, the PWM IAC drive, and various other noisy things. I strongly suspect that radiated noise plays a role in this problem.
Matt Cramer
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 17507
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:08 pm

Re: '99-'00 Miata crank / cam inputs

Post by Matt Cramer »

In the cases we looked at, the misfire issue was traced to noise on the second trigger input, which had no filtering in the first drafts of articles on how to Megasquirt these cars. We simply added a capacitor to the second trigger input and it worked in the cars we've tested it on. This is the "cap mod" that gets mentioned often on miataturbo.net. We have seen one or two CASs that seem to work with the stock ECU but not a Megasquirt, but we've usually chalked that up to the stock ECU having some sort of ability to compensate for a flakey CAS.
Matt Cramer -1966 Dodge Dart slant six running on MS3X
Post Reply