MAF setup assitance requested

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weeblebiker
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MAF setup assitance requested

Post by weeblebiker »

I accidently post this in the developement forum initially, sorry
I have a Bosch HFM 2 80mm maf plumbed in and did the maf analyzer program to create an maffactor.inc file.
now what do I do with it to get TS v0.9993 and ms2-Extra 3.0.3s to do the right thing with it?
I drag and dropped maffactor.inc file into the TS inc folder, what else do I need to do? I've read through alot of posts, I'm not compitent with "find this bit of code and replace it with this other bit of code" responses that I've read.

anyone willing to write out a step-by step with what to do with the maffactor.inc file and specify which/where the settings that need to be changed are?

I want to use maf or maf (maybe maf low load map high load if possible) for this itb turbo intake manifold setup. I have it idling on map now.
Image
v2.2 box, ms2, dual wheel, sequential ignition, staged injection, boost control, maf
'87 VW scirocco, 2L16V, TD0-14T turbo, itbs
elaw
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Re: MAF setup assitance requested

Post by elaw »

Well... I've never used a MAF on MS2 but I think it's about the same as MS3 which is what I'm using. But you must be using the newest release version of MS2/extra - version 3.1.0. Once you've gotten up and running on that version do the following:

First, rather than overwrite the one that comes with TS or the firmware, rename your "maffactor.inc" file to something else for example "MyMAF.inc".

Next you need to find where your TunerStudio project is located on disk. If you don't know its location, you can go into project properties in TS and on the "configuration" tab it's shown under "project directory". Open that folder.

Under the project folder there's a subfolder called "inc". You want to put your MAF inc file into that folder.

Now look for another subfolder in the project folder called "projectCfg" and open it.

In the projectCfg folder you'll see a file called "mainController.ini". You need to edit that file with a text editor.

In the editor, search for "ReferenceTables". You should find a section that looks like this:

Code: Select all

[ReferenceTables]

    tableWriteCommand 	= "t" ; 
    
    referenceTable = mafTableBurner, "Calibrate MAF Table..."
    	;topicHelp = "http://www.megamanual.com/mt28.htm#??"
        tableIdentifier = 003, "MAF Table"
        adcCount 	= 1024 	; length of the table
        bytesPerAdc 	= 2 	; using words
        scale		= 1 ; scale before sending to controller
        ;tableGenerator	= Generator Type, 		Label, xUnits, yUnits,  xLow, xHi,  yLow, yHi ; lows and Hi's are just default values, they will be user editable
    	;tableGenerator	= linearGenerator, "Custom Linear WB", "Volts","AFR",    1,   4,   9.7,  18.7
    	solutionsLabel	= "MAF Sensor"
    	solution	= "Ford V8", 	{ table(adcValue, "maffactor.inc") }
;    	solution	= "Ford V8", 	{ table(adcValue, "maffactor.inc") }
See the two lines at the end (one is commented out with a ";" character) that say "solution =..."? Those are the lines that reference the include files for the MAF sensor. What you need to do is add a line that looks just like the one without the ";", but give it a name of your choosing and use the name you gave to the MAF include file earlier. So you might end up with something like this:

Code: Select all

[ReferenceTables]

    tableWriteCommand 	= "t" ; 
    
    referenceTable = mafTableBurner, "Calibrate MAF Table..."
    	;topicHelp = "http://www.megamanual.com/mt28.htm#??"
        tableIdentifier = 003, "MAF Table"
        adcCount 	= 1024 	; length of the table
        bytesPerAdc 	= 2 	; using words
        scale		= 1 ; scale before sending to controller
        ;tableGenerator	= Generator Type, 		Label, xUnits, yUnits,  xLow, xHi,  yLow, yHi ; lows and Hi's are just default values, they will be user editable
    	;tableGenerator	= linearGenerator, "Custom Linear WB", "Volts","AFR",    1,   4,   9.7,  18.7
    	solutionsLabel	= "MAF Sensor"
    	solution	= "Ford V8", 	{ table(adcValue, "maffactor.inc") }
    	solution	= "My MAF sensor", 	{ table(adcValue, "MyMAF.inc") }
;    	solution	= "Ford V8", 	{ table(adcValue, "maffactor.inc") }
...if you want to fool around with different calibrations for your sensor, you can have as many .inc files as you want - just make sure they have unique names, drop them in the project "inc" folder, and create a line for each one in the mainController.ini file as shown above.

Now close the text editor, saving the mainController.ini file. One thing you should be aware of is that's a copy of the .ini file that comes with the MS2/Extra firmware... so if you ever upgrade your firmware in the future it could get overwritten. So you should make a backup copy of that file, so you can reinsert your changes later if necessary.

Next you need to go into TunerStudio and set up your MS for MAF sensor operation. Specifically, you need the following settings:
  • Under "basic setup - basic/advanced user", "user level" must be set to "Advanced".
    Under "basic setup - engine constants", "control algorithm" must be set to "MAF".
    Under "basic setup - more engine constants", "secondary fuel load" should be set to "MAF" so you can make mixture adjustments by RPM and load
    Under "basic setup - more engine constants", "secondary fuel" should be set to "multiplicative"
    Under "basic setup - more engine constants", "multiply MAP" should be set to "don't multiply"
    Under "basic setup - more engine constants", "incorporate AFRtarget", I suggest setting this to "include AFRtarget"
    Under "basic setup - fuel VE table 1", make sure all the values are set to 100
    Under "basic setup - fuel VE table 2", make sure all the values are set to 100 (to start with, this is the table you'll use for tuning)
    Under "advanced - MAF settings", "MAF port" should be set to the port you have your MAF sensor connected to
    Under "advanced - MAF settings", "engine size" should be set to the displacement of your engine
    Under "advanced - MAF correction curve", make sure all the values are set to 100 unless you have a reason not to
There are a few other choices you need to make in the "basic setup - more engine constants" window. "Primary ignition load" can be set to "speed density" to have it based on MAP, or "MAFMAP" to have it based on the MAF sensor reading (there of course are other options too). Likewise, the AFR and EAE load can be set to MAF, MAFMAP (an estimation of MAP derived from MAF), or MAP.

And here are a couple of things that aren't strictly necessary to use a MAF sensor but are very helpful. First, in the project folder "projectCfg" subfolder, look for a file called "custom.ini". If it's not present create it, and edit it with a text editor. If it is present, just edit it. You want to make sure it has a "datalog" section with two values as shown here:

Code: Select all

[Datalog]
	entry = maf, "MAF", float, "%.3f"
	entry = mafmap, "MAFMAP", float, "%.3f"
Having that section and those values will cause TS to log MAF and MAFMAP, which can be very handy for troubleshooting.

And lastly if you want to use VEAL (VE analyze live) in Tunerstudio you need to change one more file. Find the folder you have TunerStudio installed in, and go to the "inc" subfolder of that folder. Find and open (in a text editor) a file called "ms3VeAnalyzeMaps.ini"*. Look for some lines in the file that look like this:

Code: Select all

        ; Table 2
    #if LAMBDA
         veAnalyzeMap = veTable2Tbl, afrTable2Tbl, lambda2, egocor2, { ((dualTable ) || (algorithm2 != 0)) }
    #else
         veAnalyzeMap = veTable2Tbl, afrTable2Tbl, afr2, egocor2, { ((dualTable ) || (algorithm2 != 0)) }
    #endif
...and change the second "veAnalyzeMap" line to replace "afr2" with "afr1" and "egocor2" with "egocor1" as follows**:

Code: Select all

        ; Table 2
    #if LAMBDA
         veAnalyzeMap = veTable2Tbl, afrTable2Tbl, lambda1, egocor2, { ((dualTable ) || (algorithm2 != 0)) }
    #else
         veAnalyzeMap = veTable2Tbl, afrTable2Tbl, [b]afr1, egocor1[/b], { ((dualTable ) || (algorithm2 != 0)) }
    #endif
Well that's it, I hope I didn't forget anything! :?

* Edit 15-July-2011: The "ms3VeAnalyzeMaps.ini" file is if you're using Megasquirt *3*. If you're using MS2, I think you should edit "ms2VeAnalyzeMaps.ini" instead (note the 3 changed to a 2).

** Edit 15-July-2011: This originally did not include changing the "egocor" parameter but I'm now recommending changing that also based on input from nuvolarossa and Phil Tobin (author of Tunerstudio).
Last edited by elaw on Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:36 am, edited 4 times in total.
Eric Law
1990 Audi 80 quattro with AAN turbo engine: happily running on MS3+MS3X
2012 Audi A4 quattro, desperately in need of tweaking

Be alert! America needs more lerts.
weeblebiker
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Re: MAF setup assitance requested

Post by weeblebiker »

Thank You Sir!
I'll get running on 3.1.0 and report back.
v2.2 box, ms2, dual wheel, sequential ignition, staged injection, boost control, maf
'87 VW scirocco, 2L16V, TD0-14T turbo, itbs
weeblebiker
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Re: MAF setup assitance requested

Post by weeblebiker »

where is the window for selecting the maf?
I updated to 3.1.0 code, inserted the lines listed and things seemed to be working. I wrote another transfer funtion and after I placed the .inc file and added the line in the mainController.ini, I can't find the window to select mafs.

[ReferenceTables]

tableWriteCommand = "t" ;

referenceTable = mafTableBurner, "Calibrate MAF Table..."
;topicHelp = "http://www.megamanual.com/mt28.htm#??"
tableIdentifier = 003, "MAF Table"
adcCount = 1024 ; length of the table
bytesPerAdc = 2 ; using words
scale = 1 ; scale before sending to controller
;tableGenerator = Generator Type, Label, xUnits, yUnits, xLow, xHi, yLow, yHi ; lows and Hi's are just default values, they will be user editable
;tableGenerator = linearGenerator, "Custom Linear WB", "Volts","AFR", 1, 4, 9.7, 18.7
solutionsLabel = "MAF Sensor"
solution = "Ford V8", { table(adcValue, "maffactor.inc") }
solution = "bosch_hfm2_80mm", { table(adcValue, "bosch_hfm2_80mm.inc") }
solution = "bosch_hfm5_80mm", { table(adcValue, "bosch_hfm5_80mm.inc") }
; solution = "Ford V8", { table(adcValue, "maffactor.inc") }[ReferenceTables]
v2.2 box, ms2, dual wheel, sequential ignition, staged injection, boost control, maf
'87 VW scirocco, 2L16V, TD0-14T turbo, itbs
elaw
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Re: MAF setup assitance requested

Post by elaw »

Do you mean where you set the MS to MAF operation, or how do you upload the calibration for your MAF sensor?

To set MS to MAF operation, under "basic setup - engine constants", "control algorithm" must be set to "MAF".

To upload the calibration for your sensor, go to "tools - calibrate MAF table". There should be a dropdown list in that window showing the sensors listed in the .ini file. Select the one you want and click the "write to controller" button.
Eric Law
1990 Audi 80 quattro with AAN turbo engine: happily running on MS3+MS3X
2012 Audi A4 quattro, desperately in need of tweaking

Be alert! America needs more lerts.
weeblebiker
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Re: MAF setup assitance requested

Post by weeblebiker »

thanks,
having a brain fart. the calibrate maf under tools is what I was looking for.
v2.2 box, ms2, dual wheel, sequential ignition, staged injection, boost control, maf
'87 VW scirocco, 2L16V, TD0-14T turbo, itbs
weeblebiker
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Posts: 421
Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 4:03 pm

Re: MAF setup assitance requested

Post by weeblebiker »

been messing with maf and just switched back to map. dunno if my transfer curves are bad or I have a hardware/wiring issue.

I'm thinking of dataloging the maf output running on map and then back calculating the tranfer curve.

also, from reading the megamanual section on maf I thought there was a way to run true dual load inputs with map and maf. is this not possible yet?
v2.2 box, ms2, dual wheel, sequential ignition, staged injection, boost control, maf
'87 VW scirocco, 2L16V, TD0-14T turbo, itbs
elaw
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Re: MAF setup assitance requested

Post by elaw »

weeblebiker wrote:been messing with maf and just switched back to map. dunno if my transfer curves are bad or I have a hardware/wiring issue.
What's the engine doing (or not doing)? No credit for saying "running" :lol:
weeblebiker wrote:I'm thinking of dataloging the maf output running on map and then back calculating the tranfer curve.
I know that's doable on MS3, not sure about MS2. The problem is if it's not running in MAF mode, the "MAF" and "MAFMAP" variables are not calculated so your log would show nothing. On MS3 you can set the sensor up as a generic input and log voltage, but I'm not sure if you can do that on MS2.

Also, coming up with a transfer equation may not be as easy as it seems: the MAF sensor output does not always directly correlate to MAP and RPM. VE will of course affect it, as will IAT and to a small extent CLT, also barometric pressure and humidity. And during transients you'll see strange things due to the airflow dynamics.

What sensor are you using?
weeblebiker wrote:also, from reading the megamanual section on maf I thought there was a way to run true dual load inputs with map and maf. is this not possible yet?
I'm not sure if we're talking about the same thing here but that sounds like what I'm doing. I'm using MAF for fueling computation, but MAP for most table lookups like VE, timing, AFR target, etc. It probably sounds goofy but in my case it works quite well. I think the usual approach when using a MAF is to use MAFMAP for those things, but I've found MAFMAP doesn't track MAP very well.
Eric Law
1990 Audi 80 quattro with AAN turbo engine: happily running on MS3+MS3X
2012 Audi A4 quattro, desperately in need of tweaking

Be alert! America needs more lerts.
weeblebiker
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Posts: 421
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Re: MAF setup assitance requested

Post by weeblebiker »

elaw wrote:
weeblebiker wrote:been messing with maf and just switched back to map. dunno if my transfer curves are bad or I have a hardware/wiring issue.
What's the engine doing (or not doing)? No credit for saying "running" :lol:

when attempting to run maf, my fueling was way way to rich like getting gas in the oil rich, I just thought my wue may be the culprit on that, so maybe the first thing to do is get the engine full warm under map then shut down and load the maf msq with the wue set to 0%
weeblebiker wrote:I'm thinking of dataloging the maf output running on map and then back calculating the tranfer curve.
I know that's doable on MS3, not sure about MS2. The problem is if it's not running in MAF mode, the "MAF" and "MAFMAP" variables are not calculated so your log would show nothing. On MS3 you can set the sensor up as a generic input and log voltage, but I'm not sure if you can do that on MS2.

found this out this morning. I think I can set up a generic voltage input datalog in ms2 also, will be a way to rule out hardware.

Also, coming up with a transfer equation may not be as easy as it seems: the MAF sensor output does not always directly correlate to MAP and RPM. VE will of course affect it, as will IAT and to a small extent CLT, also barometric pressure and humidity. And during transients you'll see strange things due to the airflow dynamics.

What sensor are you using?

bosch hfm2 80mm housing, off a v6 turbo saab rated around 230 hp (my goal is around 250hp)
weeblebiker wrote:also, from reading the megamanual section on maf I thought there was a way to run true dual load inputs with map and maf. is this not possible yet?
I'm not sure if we're talking about the same thing here but that sounds like what I'm doing. I'm using MAF for fueling computation, but MAP for most table lookups like VE, timing, AFR target, etc. It probably sounds goofy but in my case it works quite well. I think the usual approach when using a MAF is to use MAFMAP for those things, but I've found MAFMAP doesn't track MAP very well.
v2.2 box, ms2, dual wheel, sequential ignition, staged injection, boost control, maf
'87 VW scirocco, 2L16V, TD0-14T turbo, itbs
elaw
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Re: MAF setup assitance requested

Post by elaw »

If you're using the same WUE settings as you were for MAP operation, that's probably not the problem. I didn't have to change mine at all when I switched to MAF.

Sounds like logging the MAF voltage would be a good next step. Also if you wanted to post your maffactor.inc file I could check to see that it's not crazy.

Also make sure your engine size is set properly in MAF settings*, and your correction table is 100% everywhere to begin with.

*This is critical! And note it's in cubic inches, not cc.
Eric Law
1990 Audi 80 quattro with AAN turbo engine: happily running on MS3+MS3X
2012 Audi A4 quattro, desperately in need of tweaking

Be alert! America needs more lerts.
weeblebiker
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Re: MAF setup assitance requested

Post by weeblebiker »

engine size 121ci, 1980cc

the maf gauge does move but just barely.
below is the inc file, is the "0" at the beginning ok?

; */ MAF file for type:bosch hfm2 80mm */
; */ File units = 10 * mg/sec */
DW 0
DW 0
MOD EDIT: <snip>
DW 22360
DW 22428
v2.2 box, ms2, dual wheel, sequential ignition, staged injection, boost control, maf
'87 VW scirocco, 2L16V, TD0-14T turbo, itbs
weeblebiker
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Re: MAF setup assitance requested

Post by weeblebiker »

I will post up the transfer function #s this afternoon
v2.2 box, ms2, dual wheel, sequential ignition, staged injection, boost control, maf
'87 VW scirocco, 2L16V, TD0-14T turbo, itbs
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Re: MAF setup assitance requested

Post by jsmcortina »

elaw wrote:Also make sure your engine size is set properly in MAF settings*,

*This is critical! And note it's in cubic inches, not cc.
Yeah, we need to change that.

James
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elaw
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Re: MAF setup assitance requested

Post by elaw »

Ow! Ya didn't have to paste the entire .inc in your message... would have been easier if you'd just attached it! :)

The file looks okay in the general sense that they usually start with some number of zeroes, then slowly increase, then increase faster toward the end, and end with values in the ten-thousands. But obviously that's quite a generalization and doesn't mean the file is a perfect match for your sensor.

For what it's worth (probably not much), I took the numbers from my sensor and ran them through the .inc-generator program and got output considerably different from what I had generated myself and is working well on my car. But I don't have time right now (maybe this evening) to analyze exactly what the differences are, and I know many people are using that program successfully. So it's probably just something dumb on my part. And/or related to the fact that my sensor outputs a fairly high voltage (almost a volt) at zero flow, which most other sensors (including the HFM2) don't.

Anywho, if you can post the calibration figures from your sensor that could be helpful, even more helpful might be a log of the sensor output voltage with the engine running. Perhaps for some reason MS isn't seeing the correct voltage?

One other note just for reference: my engine typically idles at around 6 grams/second, I'd expect yours to be in the same ballpark like between 4 and 8. So compared to the scale on the gauge, it's a pretty low number.
Eric Law
1990 Audi 80 quattro with AAN turbo engine: happily running on MS3+MS3X
2012 Audi A4 quattro, desperately in need of tweaking

Be alert! America needs more lerts.
weeblebiker
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Re: MAF setup assitance requested

Post by weeblebiker »

I'll try and get the voltage logged. somehow the wue was around 100% oops! explains the way rich condition. now that is fixed I can tell for sure that the idle flow voltage in the calibration is too high. the maf gauge bounces around 1 and the injector pulse width tries to hit 1.4ms when idle is 2.2-2.4ms
v2.2 box, ms2, dual wheel, sequential ignition, staged injection, boost control, maf
'87 VW scirocco, 2L16V, TD0-14T turbo, itbs
elaw
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Re: MAF setup assitance requested

Post by elaw »

Uh... don't change your warmup numbers yet!

There's nothing wrong with having 100% in the table, that's the normal value for a warmed-up engine.

The table's name is a little misleading - it's not actually % enrichment it's % of normal fueling. So 100% is normal, and numbers above 100% give enrichment.

For example, my table has 160% at very low temps, to 112% around 60 degrees F, and 100% at 190F. Never lower than 100%.
Eric Law
1990 Audi 80 quattro with AAN turbo engine: happily running on MS3+MS3X
2012 Audi A4 quattro, desperately in need of tweaking

Be alert! America needs more lerts.
weeblebiker
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Re: MAF setup assitance requested

Post by weeblebiker »

hmm
I'll check back later :oops:
v2.2 box, ms2, dual wheel, sequential ignition, staged injection, boost control, maf
'87 VW scirocco, 2L16V, TD0-14T turbo, itbs
weeblebiker
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Re: MAF setup assitance requested

Post by weeblebiker »

amazing what I forgot since I set up my origenal tune, a little embarassing
k so a drove a bit on maf. idle is too lean to not stall instantly, anything mid throttle and up is way too rich for VEAL to manage. diving around lite throttle is ok and on target afr.
I left my transfer calcs at work. I'll post em up tomorrow.

I'm still trying to get my head around MAF.
from the evidence,
the voltage/flow is set too high at ide and too low it mid upper throttle flow in the transfer function?

I suspect I need to break up the 15% fuel load bin into 5-10-15% bins since off throttle through cruise never leaves 15% bins.

this manifold is proving to be a bit tricky to tune.
v2.2 box, ms2, dual wheel, sequential ignition, staged injection, boost control, maf
'87 VW scirocco, 2L16V, TD0-14T turbo, itbs
elaw
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Re: MAF setup assitance requested

Post by elaw »

Dumb question: is there any possibility there's air getting into the engine that's not going through the MAF sensor? What you describe sounds like a classic case of an air leak.

Of course given the experimental nature of your setup there are a lot of other possibilities too. A log of the voltage and the numbers you're using to generate the sensor curve will probably help.

Do you have the MAF sensor set up as blow-through (after the turbo) or draw-through (before the turbo)? One other possibility I'm thinking of, which could make things a nightmare, is some sort of resonance in the intake that's causing the MAF sensor to give erroneous readings. I think the highly-tuned nature of your intake makes that more likely, and if your setup is blow-through (meaning the MAF sensor is closer to the intake runners) it makes it even more likely.
Eric Law
1990 Audi 80 quattro with AAN turbo engine: happily running on MS3+MS3X
2012 Audi A4 quattro, desperately in need of tweaking

Be alert! America needs more lerts.
johnc32779
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Re: MAF setup assitance requested

Post by johnc32779 »

This thread has encouraged me to give MAF a whirl once again. The last time was in 2009 with B&G MS2. My setup now is MS3/MS3x running full sequential.

At this point I have setup Eric Law's configuration, and everything seem fine except my understanding of how the setup works, and its implications. Eric's setup uses features that I haven't needed todate, and as result I no feel for what is going on. Specifically, the whole business of secondary load and the interaction with primary load - if any, the meaning of "Secondary fuel" should be "multiplicative", etc.

Also I don't understand the meaning of the values in veTable2 that are adjust by VEAL, and how this relates to the MAF calibration curve. For example, is VEAL compensating for errors in the calibration curve, etc.

The only technical problem I have noticed so far is that at idle, the rpm will occasionally oscillate. It doesn't seem to make a difference if closed loop idle is enabled or not.

Eric, thank you sharing,
johnc
BMW 1971 E3 Sedan; 1989 E34 M30 Engine, 60-2; 5spd-OD
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