Cam Mounted Trigger Wheel

[Steph]

I'm pretty sure the answer is going to be no, but I had to ask before I moved on to the standard 36-1 trigger wheel DIS arrangement. It is at all possible to set up a V3.0 MS2 with MS2Extra (latest) to work with a 36-1 cam mounted trigger wheel on its own? The application is a SOHC 4-cylinder which I'm converting from from carb to FI. Every way I look at this tells me this is the best way to go with a SOHC 4-cylinder regardless of whether one wishes to run full sequential ignition and injection, but it doesn't seem to be covered in the manual, or at least I can't find where it is? I would like to go this way because of simplicity, as I'm making an adjustable cam gear, and adding a trigger wheel is simple and the sensor would be easy to mount also.

Thanks,
Steph

[jsmcortina]

It will work but due to chain or belt stretch and slop in gears etc. you will have less accurate timing than a crank trigger.

James

[Steph]

So would this be supported by MS2Extra for running waste spark and semi-sequential injection? As in, is it just a matter of selecting 'Single Wheel Cam Mounted' (if that is an option?) while inputting all the other 36-1 missing tooth configuration settings?

Steph

[jsmcortina]

Have you read the manual?
http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms2extra/MS2 ... _Tooth.htm

James

[Steph]

As I quite clearly stated in my first post...

...but it doesn't seem to be covered in the manual, or at least I can't find where it is?

[Steph]

For the record, I've read that part over and over again. If you don't want to help, then that's fine, but that type of response is kinda passive aggressive, don't you think?

[jsmcortina]

You asked if the tooth wheel supported cam wheels. The manual page opens with: "Missing tooth crank or cam wheel" so that suggested you hadn't actually read the manual.

James

[Steph]

I stated very specifically what I wanted to know, and that I couldn't find a specific answer, and that perhaps I missed the answer while reading that section over and over again... perhaps you could cut and paste it to prove it to me? Anyway, after several reads and still not feeling I had found any confirmation, I then asked for someone's help. Maybe you're having a bad day, I don't know, but I pretty much only asked one question in the end, and that was "is it just a matter of selecting 'Single Wheel Cam Mounted' (if that is an option?) while inputting all the other 36-1 missing tooth configuration settings?" which a simple "yes" or "no" would have sufficed, but instead I get grilled and accused of not having looked. If it's there, I can't see it, but I can assure you it's not from want of searching for it. I just haven't found anything that categorically answers my question and gives me the confidence to proceed down a particular path in the construction of my MS2 kit. I don't understand what any of this is achieving, and I'm sorry you feel I am abusing the 'system' or at least that's what I assume is going on here? Just because the page opens with a heading, surely you don't expect me to automatically assume I can go in that direction based on the title alone? Again, perhaps you can cut and paste the part where it states I can configure waste spark with a cam gear alone? Or the part where it states I can indeed select 'Single Wheel Cam Mounted'? As I stated, I can't find it there, so I thought I would come to the forum and ask a a couple of questions, hoping someone would be kind enough to help me so I can get on with my soldering, or finding the extra components I'll need.

[racingmini_mtl]

The first thing James mentioned in his first post is that it will work. And the heading of the manual mentions cam wheel. So while I understand the desire for confirmation, do you think both of these were just to confuse you? In the trigger wheel settings there are 5 parameters one of which is 'Wheel speed'. If you open TunerStudio, you'll see that it can either be 'Crank wheel' or 'Cam wheel'.

James is not trying to annoy you by his responses but to carry the message to you and others that MS is still a DIY project and you have to read the documentation (on which he has spent a lot of time and effort) and go the extra distance to try to understand it all. His first answer should have prompted you to just open a project and have a look. If the setting is there and you already got a response that it will work then what more do you want?

So if you or others spend the time to do the extra step of checking a few things, you won't need to spend the time writing a message such as the one above and neither James nor I or anyone else will have to spend the time to tell you why you got the response you got.

Having said that, if things are really not clear then do mention it. But don't expect hand holding and don't take any comment or response as a personal attack because it is very likely not personal unless you made it personal first.

Jean

[Yowzer]

I'm with Steph on this one. Anything in the manual regarding sequential ignition states that you must have 2 trigger wheels, and nothing makes mention of the ability of running sequential from a missing tooth at cam speed.
I too have read through the manual numerous times attempting to memorise as much as I can, and the only mention of the ability to run a single cam wheel is in the header "Missing tooth crank or cam wheel" in which it goes into no further detail of the cam part, and the screenshot of the menu where you can select cam speed.
Nothing makes mention of this features usability or limitations.
I therefore assume both sequential and wasted ignition will run off a single missing tooth wheel at cam speed, but have yet been able to confirm this.


In any case I found this thread as I was searching for the exact same information.

[knightrous]

Anything in the manual regarding sequential ignition states that you must have 2 trigger wheels, and nothing makes mention of the ability of running sequential from a missing tooth at cam speed.

Looking at the options in Tuner Studio, this looks possible. I was still able to setup the sequential settings in TS with the 24-1 @ cam speed, however switching to EDIS (to test) stopped me from accessing the sequential settings.

However, there isn't direct coverage or explanation on using a missing tooth wheel on the cam for sequential in the manuals from what I can see. Personally, if this works (Could some please confirm?), it will make the issues I'm having with my 4AGE 20V a tonne easier as I will be able to just grind a tooth off the 24t wheel and mount a single hall sensor.

[Peter Florance]

I can confirm it works on MS3; I would guess it would on MS2 as well. You should test with Jimstim before committing the hardware.

[racingmini_mtl]

I can confirm it works on MS2 also. A missing tooth wheel running at cam speed provides all the information the code needs to know the engine position and do sequential injection and ignition. And an EDIS module provides no more engine position information to the MS than a distributor (basic trigger) so it is impossible to do sequential or semi-sequential using it because the code has no idea which cylinder it is firing.

There is one issue when using a cam mounted missing tooth wheel though. A cam mounted trigger will never be as accurate as a crank mounted one. So if you have a choice, a dual wheel setup (with a crank mounted primary trigger) is a better choice.

Jean

[jasaircraft]

I can confirm it works on MS2 also. A missing tooth wheel running at cam speed provides all the information the code needs to know the engine position and do sequential injection and ignition. And an EDIS module provides no more engine position information to the MS than a distributor (basic trigger) so it is impossible to do sequential or semi-sequential using it because the code has no idea which cylinder it is firing.

There is one issue when using a cam mounted missing tooth wheel though. A cam mounted trigger will never be as accurate as a crank mounted one. So if you have a choice, a dual wheel setup (with a crank mounted primary trigger) is a better choice.

Jean

Hi Jean, the last days I have been trying to make a 4age 20v blacktop work, but just couldnt, I hadnt tought of the 24 with one missing setup, I think I should have tried that first, I ended up leaving 4 teeth but just cant pick up signal because of the slower cam wheel speed or because there is something wrong with my vr circuit. How can I check my VR circuit state?
this is my thread: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 01&t=44177