V3.57 EDIS connections

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V3.57 EDIS connections

Postby jnovak » Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:23 am

I have been through the manual and the archives and am still thoroughly confused. This is my first time dealing with the V3.57 board. This is my 5th MS install and I am stumped.

I am trying to enable EDIS (Opto-Hall) circuit on a MS2-V3.57 board running MS2-Extra 3.1 code.

There is much conflicting information related to the differences between the V3.0 and the V3.57 boards. I have previously enabled EDIS on a V3.0 board with no problems but the V3.57 is confusing to me.

Currently, I have a good signal coming out of the EDIS controller but there is no tach signal in TS. I followed this thread and have completed the following board mods:

viewtopic.php?f=101&t=44435

For a 3.57 board EDIS ignition configuration -
Connect a 1k resistor from pin 1 of U5 to pin 1 of U3.
Remove C30
Jumper XG1 to pin 2 of JP1
Remove Q16
Jumper JS10 to center hole of Q16
Jumper on J1 across pin 1 & 2

From EDIS
PIP goes to DB37 pin 24
SAW goes to DB37 pin 36

Another thread says there are no board mods required. Just do the following. Neither of these approaches has worked.

Jmper JP1 P2-3
Jumper J1 pin 1-2
Jumper XG1-XG2
Solder Js10 to IGN. (Where is IGN on the V3.57 board? Is this the same as Q16-center pin?)

There are other threads describing the removal of diodes, soldering resistors, etc. I have no problem modifying a SMT board I just need to know the correct things to modify.

Neither of these approaches has worked. The wiring of the controller and ground shields have been checked for shorts - none found.

I also request that we can take the information and give diagrams on the EDIS page for the V3.57 board rather than "just follow the V3.0 board". I will even draw the diagrams and directions if someone can put these in the manual.

Looking forward to firing up this new engine.

thanks.
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Re: V3.57 EDIS connections

Postby jsmcortina » Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:41 am

Agreed that things are unclear.

For MS3 the docs suggest using the "VR" (universal) tach input. That is likely far simpler for you to use as no component changes or jumpers or soldering are required. See here: http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms3/edis.html

Assuming that works out as it should that I can get those instructions merged into the MS2 manual.

James
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Re: V3.57 EDIS connections

Postby jnovak » Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:19 am

Thanks James.

Following the page you linked I found the following. It describes a situation that should apply for for MS2 (like the MS3 without MS3x).

"Without the MS3X it necessary to customise the Megasquirt internally. See V3.0 diagram or V3.57 diagram"

I see that for a standard EDIS install you follow the picture.

Image

looking at the picture I see...

J1 - Pin 2-3 jumper
JP1 - Pin 1-2 jumper
C30 left in place
Pad1 - center pin Q16 jumper
Q16 not installed
no connection to JS10

I will try this and see if it works.
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Re: V3.57 EDIS connections

Postby jsmcortina » Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:47 am

Ah curses.... that's still not quite right. On MS2/Extra the SAW output is locked to JS10. So you DO need to do the JS10-middle pin of Q16 link and NOT with wire shown in that image.

I see that the links to the input stuff is (was) broken too.
What I was wanting to send you to is this: http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms3/ignition.html#vrv357

James
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Re: V3.57 EDIS connections

Postby jnovak » Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:32 pm

James, I think you see how easily it is to become confused. Let's use this as an opportunity to straighten it out and update the documentation.

from your link the opto-isolator has the following instructions. The confusion is that this said fuel only trigger.

V3.57 Opto-isolator (for coil negative fuel-only triggering):
a) Find JP1 in the bottom right of the board. Place a jumper across positions 2 and 3
b) Find J1 in the middle of the board. Place a jumper across positions 1 and 2
c) Place a jumper from XG1 to XG2 (just to the left of J1 above U3.) In exceptionally noisy situations it might be required to remove that jumper and instead runs XG1 out through a spare connection on the DB37 and through the loom direct to the engine.


I have tried this and it did not work. Maybe The JS10-Q16 jumper was not in place at the time. However, I should have still had a tach signal in TS even though the engine would not fire because there was no JS10 SAW output.

Thanks again for the help.
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Re: V3.57 EDIS connections

Postby jsmcortina » Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:46 pm

jnovak wrote:James, I think you see how easily it is to become confused. Let's use this as an opportunity to straighten it out and update the documentation.

from your link the opto-isolator has the following instructions. The confusion is that this said fuel only trigger.

Who said to use the opto-isolator ?

James
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Re: V3.57 EDIS connections

Postby jsmcortina » Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:51 pm

jsmcortina wrote:Who said to use the opto-isolator ?

Specifically the MS3 manual page for EDIS says:
MS3 manual wrote:Tach input setting

The Megasquirt board needs to be set for VR input. V3.0 VR setting - V3.57 VR setting
Note that this is different from earlier Megasquirt versions.

That's the part I wanted you to follow.

Set the input up like that and use the input capture polarity setting that the MS3 manual says.
Set the output up as JS10 - Q16 (middle pin)

James
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Re: V3.57 EDIS connections

Postby jnovak » Tue Apr 17, 2012 2:10 pm

James,

Why would you use a VR input when the trigger signal coming from the EDIS controller is a sq wave? There is no zero point cross over on the sq. wave like there is on a VR signal. If the VR input will function by going "high" or going "low" I can see how this will work.

This is most helpful.

Jamie
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Re: V3.57 EDIS connections

Postby jsmcortina » Tue Apr 17, 2012 2:21 pm

Because it is a universal tach input.

James
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Re: V3.57 EDIS connections

Postby S.Bretz » Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:04 pm

The VR input can take either the hall or the vr input....the only difference is how much you turn the trim pots to condition the input signal. Follow the what the MS3 instructions say to set the trims pots too for a hall input and you should be good to go.


Im not sure on the 3.57 board, but on the 3.0, you can still use the hall input as per the old instructions, but it may be harder to figure out what is not set up correctly or not working correctly since the VR input has been the standardized way to do it for, to my knowledge, at least a couple of years now.....stepping away for the standard platform can cause incorrect help suggestions when diagnosing issues and lengthen down time. If you some how use the older method, you will most likley have to double check all your input output ports to insure they are correct to the way you contructed the circuit and verify that the ports in use do not conflict with other ports alreay in use.



Edit: For edis, turn both trim pots all the way counter-clockwise (12-13 turns to insure full counter clockwire), then turn r56 6 turns clockwise. That should set you up where you need to be.
Last edited by S.Bretz on Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: V3.57 EDIS connections

Postby jsmcortina » Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:06 pm

I will update the MS2 instructions (for V3.57 at least) to use the "VR" input as it should be simpler to use.

James
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Re: V3.57 EDIS connections

Postby jnovak » Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:56 am

S.Bretz wrote:The VR input can take either the hall or the vr input....the only difference is how much you turn the trim pots to condition the input signal. Follow the what the MS3 instructions say to set the trims pots too for a hall input and you should be good to go.


I think this is a key statement. In previous versions (and documentation) you had to select between a VR sensor or Hall Effect (EDIS). I was trying to configure for the Hall effect as this is what was done on a V2.2 and V3.0 board.

I will report back the previous mods are reversed and then plug back in the car.
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Re: V3.57 EDIS connections

Postby jnovak » Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:04 pm

The jumper mods did not work. Time for more involved diagnostics.

I am going to follow this signal path.
Image

ON the V3.57 board I then get this. I will be looking for the 12V sq wave input and following the same frequency across the board.

Image

Does this look reasonable? Where else does the signal go? I can look also at J1 and JP1 at the individual jumpered pins.
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Re: V3.57 EDIS connections

Postby SymTech Laboratories » Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:04 pm

If you're going to use that circuit, you could just remove D1 and D2 and replace them with a small piece of wire or a clipped lead from a through-hole resistor or diode. Connect pin 3 of JP1 to S12C, and connect pin 2 of JP1 to XG1. Place the jumper shunt on J1 across pins 1 and 2. Finally, replace R12 with a 1k ohm resistor.

Like this:

v357_EDIS.png
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Image
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Re: V3.57 EDIS connections

Postby jnovak » Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:21 am

Thanks for the diagram.

Is there another circuit that does not require so many mods? I thought that was the purpose of the V3.57 board jumpers. However, I have not been able to get them to work.

I don't mind using the soldering iron and have access to a microscope for mounding SMT components by hand. But jumpers are much faster. :)

At this point I am willing to do anything that will actually work.
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Re: V3.57 EDIS connections

Postby jnovak » Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:52 am

Just soldered up these mods as listed. No tach signal on the stim. Something is not right with this method.
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Re: V3.57 EDIS connections

Postby SymTech Laboratories » Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:13 am

It's just a matter of replacing three components and adding two jumpers, otherwise there's VR circuit like James suggested. It sounds like you've tried both circuits at this point, which indicates something is either wrong with your processor (including settings) or EDIS module. Could you post a copy of your MSQ file and confirm that you're using an EDIS module to test, and not a stim?
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Re: V3.57 EDIS connections

Postby jsmcortina » Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:58 am

I use the VR circuit with the EDIS settings on the bench on my V357 board every day with an "EDIS like" signal from the stim. It works fine.

James
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Re: V3.57 EDIS connections

Postby SymTech Laboratories » Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:00 pm

jsmcortina wrote:I use the VR circuit with the EDIS settings on the bench on my V357 board every day with an "EDIS like" signal from the stim. It works fine.

We weren't implying that the VR circuit or stim don't work with the EDIS signal, it was just unclear what jnovak is using to do his testing.
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Re: V3.57 EDIS connections

Postby jsmcortina » Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:26 pm

SymTech Laboratories wrote:
jsmcortina wrote:I use the VR circuit with the EDIS settings on the bench on my V357 board every day with an "EDIS like" signal from the stim. It works fine.

We weren't implying that the VR circuit or stim don't work with the EDIS signal, it was just unclear what jnovak is using to do his testing.

Agreed.

I also wanted to clarify that the VR settings I described work for me. They are what I use for the crank input on my LS1 engine too.

James
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