Understanding of siamese injector timing settings

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Vauxi
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Understanding of siamese injector timing settings

Post by Vauxi »

Hello.
I've been using various MS ecus past years and features are pretty clear to me excluding siamese sequential injection timing values. I have been installing two injectors to the small Vauxhall's ohv engine from early seventies. It has siamese intake ports. I have been driving it last couple of years with 1port injection running it as semi-sequential and now it was time to upgrade. With 1. point injection I drove tuned injection timing and found out that 45 degrees gave most power and close to 60 was smoothiest at low engine speeds.

Main question is what values to input to the 2 timing values in Engine and Sequential Settings ? I kinda understand the calculations to full sequential system of ohc engines but this is much more complex to me. Does timing 2 slot mean second or third cylinder? Shoud I start measuring intake valve opening angle from TDC? What I have read is that at ohc systems you start measuring angle from first BTDC or 180degree. This all is more than a bit confusing. :shock:

Measured with dial indicator and protractor that this grinded cam starts opening first cylinder intake valve at 40deg BTDC. Third cylinders intake valve starts open at 150 ATDC. So, what to input ? 50 and 140 ?

Vauxhall ohv 1256cc four banger.
Microsquirt module
Ms2Extra 3.4.2
TunerStudio MS v3.0.18
Vauxi
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Re: Understanding of siamese injector timing settings

Post by Vauxi »

Yeah. I'll try 50 for the first outside injection and -140 to the first inside injection.
Vauxi
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Re: Understanding of siamese injector timing settings

Post by Vauxi »

I'm still not 100% sure about that 2# injection -140 degree value. Can anyone confirm this ?
Vauxi
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Re: Understanding of siamese injector timing settings

Post by Vauxi »

After hours and hours of reading, learning and again reading. I finally come to values of 10 to the first and 0 to the second. As in this engine setup 2 cylinder valve starts to open at 510 degrees and 1 cylinder valve starts to open at 680 degrees. I thought that to have theoretically same situation to the both cylinder fuel atomisation level. Fuel has to be injected when intake valve is already slightly open. This could be bad thing. Whe don't know it until engine is running. :) These 0 and 10 gives same 30 crank degrees of valve opening before squirt. That amount of degree is somewhere 3mm of valve lift. Total valve lift is 10mm. I'll think as beginnig point I'll start with begin of pulse. End of pulse takes the squirt either way too late or way too early.
retired
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Re: Understanding of siamese injector timing settings

Post by retired »

I don't visit this form very often so have only just seen this.

There are a few of us who run this part of the code on A series engines, turbo'd ones where the desire to overcome the charge robbing associated with the siamese inlet ports is even more desirable. A couple of us assisted Jean with the code in the early days testing/developing it on real engines.

I presume by reading you mean predominantly this,

http://jbperf.com/sequential/index.html

With regards to the timing figures and the way it works, it is quite difficult at first, especially if you are used to normal injection regimes, it confused me enough in the early days and those of us involved do agree the documentation could be better but none of us has had the time to do so.

Reading through your posts, the last set of figures is the closest to where you should be starting, ie, two similar positive figures (mine are low positive values (based on mid pulse) at low RPM/load).

But two questions,
Firstly do you have widebands on both inner and outer exhaust runners ? Without the ability to see the effects of inner vs outer cylinder injection timings you are unlikely to ever get it right.
And secondly, are your injectors large enough ? They need to be able to flow enough fuel for a single cylinder at 20% (say an absolute maximum of 25%) duty cycle. Although each one flows twice in an engine cycle, they have to do the two pulses in quick succession in half an engine cycle.
(Unless you run the "hybrid" mode (bottom part of the menu) but that is even less documented than the normal siamese mode).

Reset your thinking of the engine cycle from 1,3,4,2 to the same order but listed 3,4,2,1,3,4,2,1,etc - inner then outer, repeat other end of engine, etc.
Then in Jean's write up (link above) the injection timing figures are relative to TDC of the actual cylinder when the inlet valve is beginning to open. Note, it's relative to the individual cylinders, not just TDC on No 1 like the normal code for an 8 port engine.
Then the figures are positive for before the inlet valve opens.
MAJOR EDIT - So, although the TunerStudio menu is in numerical order, inj timing 1 happens first on the inner cylinder 2 (or 3), not cylinder 1 (or 4) followed in quick succession by inj timing 2 on the outer cylinder (1 or 4). So it appears reversed to normal where anything timing 1 would be cylinder 1. It isn't the way you would expect. I'll attach a screenshot in a minute to show (once I can get it uploaded). END EDIT.

So the figures you choose have to achieve the near impossible of sending the first pulse down the port/runner in time for the inner valve to open (taking into account transit time which varies with RPM and how far you injector is away from the valve) but finishing before the second (outer) valve starts to open. Then, in quick succession, the second pulse has to get to the outer valve as soon as the inner is closed but not be too long or too late as if it is still travelling when the outer valve closes, it will just sit behind it and get sucked into the inner cylinder an engine cycle later because the inner opens first. The figures also need to take into account the air will be slow to accelerate for the inner cylinder but will already be moving for the outer cylinder and the fuel, being more dense accelerates at a slower speed anyway (hence charge robbing tending to make the outer cylinders run weak).
You will probably have to use timing tables (rather than just fixed values) as the transit time varies with RPM/load and wall wetting also has a significant effect, well on the A series it certainly does, especially when the head is still cold.

Hence the need for the injectors to be large and the need to monitor the effect of changes between inner and outer cylinders.

The knock-on effect of having to use large injectors to get the 20-25% duty cycle, and the two openings being in quick succession is they will be running very short pulse widths so you need to specify the dead time and battery voltage correction accurately and the dead time may not even be linear (consistent) at very short pulses widths like at idle. On the turbo'd engines we do the daughterboard modification and run staged injection which helps with the pulse widths (and we need more fuel anyway).

Hope that is of some help and good luck !

Rod.

(edited to correct mistake as noted in later post).
Last edited by retired on Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
Classic Mini "A" series 5 port 1360 turbo
MS2-E fully sequential siamese code
14point7 SLC widebands, inner and outer cylinders and after turbo
digital AFR data and digital displays via Tiny-IOx
Vauxi
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Re: Understanding of siamese injector timing settings

Post by Vauxi »

Thank you for the long waited response !
I do have dual wideband in shopping chart right after a clutch. I have four open tip egt sensors too waiting for the new exhaust manifold. :) I quess that I find out that are my injectors large enough very soon .:D Injectors are placed let's say less than 10cm from inlet valves. I think that they can not be placed any closer than that without having troubles to spread fuel evenly to both valves. Spray pattern is wide cone type.

I'm kinda reseted to thinkin outside of the box and Jeans picture meaning is clear. Glad you point out the Tunerstudio "flaw". Yes I was planning to use timing tables after first run-in etc. This Vauxhall engine is no that different to the A series so I think that many of you´re experiences will affect to this too.

Edit: I made some measure checking and previously typed timings were slightly off. Now first valve (2 cyl) has double the time to close than what was measured earlier.
retired
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Re: Understanding of siamese injector timing settings

Post by retired »

Right,

First ignore some of what I said about the timing order, schoolboy error, I wrote what I wrote from memory and have subsequently dug out my notes and found I also reversed something in what I wrote..... (that's why I said to Jean last year we really ought to document this better instead of relying on memory....).

I'll edit my first post in a couple of hours and make it clear which bit has been corrected.

I guess from vauxhall and the times you are posting that you are in the UK ?

For the dual widebands I'm not sure what you mean by "in shopping chart right after a clutch" ???

For the EGTs you say four. Does this mean your engine has four separate exhaust ports (just the inlets siamesed) ???

If so there might be some useful information. With the A series the exhaust port for 2&3 is also siamesed and when we tried EGTs, the centre siamesed exhaust wa always about 100C hotter even when the AFRs were perfectly balanced.

I'll correct the above post shortly.

Rod.
Classic Mini "A" series 5 port 1360 turbo
MS2-E fully sequential siamese code
14point7 SLC widebands, inner and outer cylinders and after turbo
digital AFR data and digital displays via Tiny-IOx
retired
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Re: Understanding of siamese injector timing settings

Post by retired »

OK, I've re-written my post above, hopefully correctly now and, if this image will attach it might help.

This is a JimStim run from the early days but I think best shows how the code works. This is fixed timing (90/45) but with the JimStim RPM pushed up (and a syringe on the MAP line) to simulate large pulse widths. The scope is only showing one injector channel as I've got the cam signal on the other channel (only a dual beam scope and if I set the external trigger you don't see the cam signal)

The different pulse widths are due to my choice of using dual VE tables to vary the inner/outer AFRs (there are two other ways but dual VE tables is my preference).

I hope this begins to make sense now.
Classic Mini "A" series 5 port 1360 turbo
MS2-E fully sequential siamese code
14point7 SLC widebands, inner and outer cylinders and after turbo
digital AFR data and digital displays via Tiny-IOx
Vauxi
Experienced MS/Extra'er
Posts: 211
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:06 am

Re: Understanding of siamese injector timing settings

Post by Vauxi »

I'm from Finland. What I meant by shopping chart was that I'm probably buying clutch kit from this paycheck and dual wideband from the next. It is possible to make four separate exhaust runners to this Vauxhall engine. Normally it has same as A series. I was a bit confused about you're writings :D No wonder then. I'll get to that scope picture with thought.
Vauxi
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Re: Understanding of siamese injector timing settings

Post by Vauxi »

I hooked up my microsquirt module and two hi z injectors for a load and scoped what injector outputs does. This could be the easiest way to learn. Or not :D In next picture. Scope is triggered by extrenal trigger port to the CAM signal what JimStim outputs.
Image

Red line represent injector bank 1 and yellow bank 2. So cylinder 1-4 should be at 1 and 2-3 in 2. First injection timing is 50 and second 45. I dunno. But for me actions of timing settings are weird. When I select table instead of fixed timings and start to alter value in use either way. It moves both banks timings. When I change trim value in table from table 2 it does affect the timing. But it moves the first yellow and second red injection times. Is this correct? Shouldn't it only move bank 1 or 2 depending what table you are moving? So far it looks like that it does not work like this when using fixed values. Have to triple check it if it is even wrong. :D


Edit: Lots of thinking again and now it is about clear why it does what it does.
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Re: Understanding of siamese injector timing settings

Post by retired »

It would be helpful to see a few more pulses (ie, change the timebase) because those pulses are very short compared to my example.

However, from the four I can see, the order seems correct.

The flyback seems rather extreme but maybe that's the way a microsquirt does it (I've only ever used an MS2) but, in principle, it seems to be working as expected.

"When I select table instead of fixed timings and start to alter value in use either way. It moves both banks timings." Yes, it should whether tables or fixed, both banks should be the same, what alters is the timing of the first pulse compared to the second, for both banks equally. We don't want the cylinder 1&2 injector to do anything different to the cylinder 3&4, we just want the timing of 2&3 to be different to 1&4

When I change trim value in table from table 2 it does affect the timing. But it moves the first yellow and second red injection times. Is this correct? Shouldn't it only move bank 1 or 2 depending what table you are moving? Trim values are not something I have tried. In fact, it was only talking to Jean last year that I understood how they are meant to work. Although it should be a valid way of altering inner vs outer AFRs in the siamese code, from my understanding, it should do so by altering the individual pulse widths relative to the VE tables. If you are seeing a timing change my best guess would be that the pulse width change is being affected by your choice of either start/mid/end pulse setting.

From those I know who are using this part of the code on an A series, the two tested/proven methods are,
1 - set inj timing (fixed or tables) to be spot-on so you absolutely know which pulse goes in which cylinder then use two VE tables to get the AFRs balanced.
2 - slightly skew the inj timing (fixed or tables) to make a little bit of the inner get delayed and go in the outer and use a single VE table and let the slightly late inner going into the outer sort out it's tendency to run lean.

Option 1 is my personal preference but I have been out in a Mini running option 2 (helping with mapping) and it also works.

Trim tables I can't comment on because I've never tried them.

The fourth option is the "hybrid" mode. Not well documented but basically means you can run a single pulse across the opening of both inlet valves, fixed timing or tables, start, mid or end pulse and by getting the timing figure right the percentage of fuel you want inner vs outer will just be determined by when the pulse starts/ends.

This mode was added when we found the two individual pulses didn't merge nicely when they got too close together. Pulses will get too close together if injectors are too small etc. Having the individual pulses "merge" into one pulse at chosen RPM etc was better than it happening un-intentionally.
I know of at least three people who replicate this in the MS3 code (which doesn't have siamese) by physically doubling up injector outputs and using the MS3 timing tables as if there were four injectors.

We later found out that this is exactly what Leyland/Rover did on the final MPI Mini, ie, switch between two short pulses and one long, depending on engine load with a MEMS ECU (four channel) with it's outputs wired together....

As you have a scope, it might be worth looking at.


EDIT, typo and a bit missed.
Classic Mini "A" series 5 port 1360 turbo
MS2-E fully sequential siamese code
14point7 SLC widebands, inner and outer cylinders and after turbo
digital AFR data and digital displays via Tiny-IOx
Vauxi
Experienced MS/Extra'er
Posts: 211
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:06 am

Re: Understanding of siamese injector timing settings

Post by Vauxi »

Thank you again. I did understand my measurements afterwards and why it does move two banks. But why it looked like it was moving one bank timing only when using fixed values. That is not what I have scoped again yet.
I'm sure I have a lot of coarse and fine tuning in timings to do before it runs good all the way. Plus a big cam as they say in usa. Causes some issues propably.
Vauxi
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Re: Understanding of siamese injector timing settings

Post by Vauxi »

Did some scoping few minutes ago. Code works as it should. It really take some time to fully understand what is going on and why it does what. Fixed timing and timing table does same thing exactly and ve trim works as it supposed to. No I know better what happends when altering value like timing 2. It was more than a bit confusing when injection pulses moves towards to the left on scope screen and it looked like all of them moves same time. Until couple cursor lines helped a lot. Timing 2 moves cylinders 2 and 3 timing and so it moves both banks first injections. Timing 1 then moves banks second injcections. VE Trim adds or reduces pw on either injection 1 or 2. Can't wait motor install no more..
Vauxi
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Re: Understanding of siamese injector timing settings

Post by Vauxi »

Break in run done succesfully(if not counting massive oil leak from valve cover due dryed out cork seal). What I noticed straight away in break in that two cylinders run leaner all the way than other two. It wasn't THAT lean as 10% trim addon bearly did the trick. That is not the fix though. I'll have to look in to it more. Tried to alter injection timings but it didn't make any difference. In that hectic break-in situation I couldn't strech more. Otherwise it did run really smooth. Way smoother than like ever. :yeah!:

As now writing this I'm not completely sure was it inner cylinders or outer that are leaner. I still could have mixed inner and outers when connecting both lambdas.
Vauxi
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Re: Understanding of siamese injector timing settings

Post by Vauxi »

Yeah. Did some reving today and after 3k rpm camshaft get's to it's "range" and both mixtures evens up by themself. So there may not be any leaks or so. :yeah!: Good place to start tuning.
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Re: Understanding of siamese injector timing settings

Post by pyphb »

GDay What mods for your crank angle and cam timing?
photos? Did you use side draught or down draft manifold? Only 2 injectors?
What throttle body or mod 30iz / cd150? Did you run 8mm new hard fuel line and use existing as return?
Thanks
Vauxi
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Re: Understanding of siamese injector timing settings

Post by Vauxi »

Gday.
- Standard universal 36-1 trigger welded to the crankwheel.
- Cam sensor reading "cam" through dizzy pot.
- Bought "race" intake manifold made to Opel ohv engine. It has pattern close to the vauxhall engine. Manifold has DCOE pattern for dual carb.
- Turned manifold 180 degrees over the rocker cover to the cold side of the engine. Because you can..
- 2 injectors welded to the manifold close to the intake valve. Two because two intake runners.
- As beginning state of injecting fuel to this engine. I used existing as return. But It was getting leaky so when I made this latest tuneup. I replaced both of them with 6mm(outer diameter) plastic lines.

Cam sensor
Intake manifod, throttlebody, bungs and rail for the injectors and special flange Vauxhall intake pattern
http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 91&t=66418


Edit: corrected carb parttern type
pyphb
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Re: Understanding of siamese injector timing settings

Post by pyphb »

Down the dizzy hole is the top of the oil pump (either offset or center drive). What is sensor pointing at?
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