Microsquirt - incorrect spark output/configuration

All questions about MS2/Microsquirt/Microsquirt module. See also MS2/Extra manuals

Moderators: jsmcortina, muythaibxr

Kclement19
MS/Extra Newbie
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:46 pm

Microsquirt - incorrect spark output/configuration

Post by Kclement19 »

Hello,

I am new to this forum and microsquirt so I apologize in advance. I will do my best to convey my issue and clarify as needed.

System overview:
1973 Porsche 911 2.4T engine (originally MFI), 6 cylinder, freshly rebuilt
First time starting the engine is with the EFI system (spark and fuel control -speed density)
Crane cams HI 6s ignition module with provided coil
https://www.amazon.com/Crane-Cams-6000- ... =crane+hi6
Crane ignition/coil fires through factory distributor/rotor to retain stock look
Spark triggered off of Hall effect sensor added to crankshaft, 3 magnets installed on crank pulley (720 degrees = 6 spark signals)
http://www.littelfuse.com/~/media/elect ... et.pdf.pdf
Microsquirt ECU - Hall effect wired to OPTOIN (see below post for more details on connections), basic trigger, WLED output to crane

Startup MSQ file provided by company who has installed this system on other 911s, but he is currently out of the country and unavailable.

Observations:
-engine would not start with WLED output triggering crane ignition (output configured to WLED)
-LED on crane box was blinking like it was getting a signal from the ECU and it did spark sometimes, engine sputtered
-spark checked via timing light and visually looking at a plug, the spark was inconsistent at the plug (was not sparking cyclically - it would spark cyclically, stop sparking for a bit, then spark sparking cyclically again)
(Innova 3551 timing light capable of multi spark ignition used)
-fed up with the engine not starting, I bypassed the spark Signal from the ECU by connecting the crane input to the factory points (not previously hooked up) and the engine started first crank (no adjustments to distributor)
-with the points signaling the crane, I noticed that the blinking light on the crane ignition was much faster than with the ECU (points yeilded a higher frequency spark signal for approximately the same engine cranking RPM compared to the ECU)

Questions:
-what parameters in Microsquirt effect the transmission of data from the OPTO input to the WLED output?
-what parameters affect the RPM reading? The RPM readout appeared reasonable (~200 RPM when cranking with starter and 2000-2500 rpm sounded about right when the engine was being run at part throttle to break in the valve train)
-what parameters affect the frequency of the WLED output vs the RPM signal (using Basic Trigger)

Anything obvious stand out? The fuel seemed to control alright besides being very rich for the startup tune. MSQ file attached, trigger log attached, picture of installed hall effect attached.

Any help is appreciated. I think more understanding of the data flow path regarding spark signal through the microsquirt ECU will help me better troubleshoot this issue. Right now I feel as if it is a black hole.

Thanks,
Kelly
Last edited by Kclement19 on Fri Mar 03, 2017 10:21 pm, edited 5 times in total.
Matt Cramer
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 17499
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:08 pm

Re: Microsquirt - incorrect spark output/configuration

Post by Matt Cramer »

Kclement19 wrote: Questions:
-what parameters in Microsquirt effect the transmission of data from the OPTO input to the WLED output?

Pretty much everything on the ignition options / wheel decoder page.

http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/html/Meg ... 4-101.html
-what parameters affect the RPM reading? The RPM readout appeared reasonable (~200 RPM when cranking with starter and 2000-2500 rpm sounded about right when the engine was being run at part throttle to break in the valve train)
-what parameters affect the frequency of the WLED output vs the RPM signal (using Basic Trigger)
In Basic Trigger mode, the number of cylinders setting is used to calculate the RPM. This mode pulses the spark output once for every time it receives an input pulse unless the input pulse is blocked by software or hardware noise filtering.

So, the main things I would do at this point:

1. Post the MSQ so others can see if there's anything weird about the settings.

2. Use the tooth logger to see if there is anything wrong with RPM input signal.
Matt Cramer -1966 Dodge Dart slant six running on MS3X
Kclement19
MS/Extra Newbie
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:46 pm

Re: Microsquirt - incorrect spark output/configuration

Post by Kclement19 »

In Basic Trigger mode, the number of cylinders setting is used to calculate the RPM. This mode pulses the spark output once for every time it receives an input pulse unless the input pulse is blocked by software or hardware noise filtering.

So, the main things I would do at this point:

1. Post the MSQ so others can see if there's anything weird about the settings.

2. Use the tooth logger to see if there is anything wrong with RPM input signal.
Thanks for that info. So it seems Basic Trigger is the correct setting for my 6 cylinder with 3 magnets on my crank pulley.

Provided start up file now attached to original post.
Picture of 4000 MS "Trigger" log while cranking the engine at ~100 RPM

Is the tooth log the input from the hall effect and the trigger log is the output to the ignition? What does the height in either log represent?
slow_hemi6
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 4122
Joined: Fri May 07, 2004 3:33 am
Location: Australia

Re: Microsquirt - incorrect spark output/configuration

Post by slow_hemi6 »

I need some clarification. In the first post you say you have a Megasquirt ECU, then later you infer you have a microquirt, which seems correct given the terminology you use. (opto in, Wled etc)
The tune file you have uploaded seems to be a MS2 V3.0 configuration not a configuration for a microsquirt, (microsquirts do not have injector PWM etc). Have you got the wrong firmware type loaded on a microsquirt?
Find the Manuals up top under Quick links: Manuals. :RTFM:
Cheers Luke
Kclement19
MS/Extra Newbie
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:46 pm

Re: Microsquirt - incorrect spark output/configuration

Post by Kclement19 »

slow_hemi6 wrote:I need some clarification. In the first post you say you have a Megasquirt ECU, then later you infer you have a microquirt, which seems correct given the terminology you use. (opto in, Wled etc)
The tune file you have uploaded seems to be a MS2 V3.0 configuration not a configuration for a microsquirt, (microsquirts do not have injector PWM etc). Have you got the wrong firmware type loaded on a microsquirt?
I'm glad I apologized in advance! The ECU is in fact a microsquirt. I was using the term "megasquirt" as the brand to describe the microsquirt. I have corrected my first post to only reference microsquirt!

When I loaded the MSQ file provided by the company (the file attached to the first post), it gave ~115 errors but the gentlemen believed that this would not cause any issues. I believe the MSQ was built previously using MS2 V3.0. I have not used the "boot loader" so I believe the current firmware on my ECU is the same firmware that was loaded whenever I purchased the microsquirt ~1 year ago. Unfortunately, I am at work on at a remote location for the next two weeks and will not be able to connect to the ECU to provide more details. However, I do have my laptop here and attached is the MSQ file that I was actually running the engine with after Tuner Studio notified me of the errors from the provided MSQ file. Does that help you identify the firmware that I'm actually running? I see "Firmware version M2S/Extra 3.4.1" when I open the project in Tuner Studios. Is this the incorrect firmware for microsquirt (see attached screenshot)? Can attempting to use the originally provided MSQ file (MS2 V3.0) change the firmware on the microsquirt after a "burn" is completed?

Thanks,
Kelly
rickb794
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 6155
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 10:28 am
Location: Portland OR

Re: Microsquirt - incorrect spark output/configuration

Post by rickb794 »

"Basic Trigger" is used for a distributor rotating at crank speed.
A distributor rotating at crank speed will provide 6 ignition event signals.
A crank with 3 magnets on it will only provide 3 ignition event signals.
Due to the Basic trigger selection the MS is expecting 6 blips per crank revolution.

In my eyes three blips per crank rotation is not going to provide a high level of accuracy regarding crank position.
I would use a 36-1 wheel. This provides 1 blip every 10° of rotation rather than 120° between blips (a lot can happen in 120°).
Correctly identify your MS ecu here
Read the Do's and Don'ts to avoid the common pitfalls before starting your install or asking for help
Use only these manuals other manuals may cause brain damage or worse.
slow_hemi6
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 4122
Joined: Fri May 07, 2004 3:33 am
Location: Australia

Re: Microsquirt - incorrect spark output/configuration

Post by slow_hemi6 »

A basic distributor has 1 pip per cylinder and turns at 1/2 crank speed, that's why they are 1:1 cam driven. 3 on crank = 6 at distributor.
You latest attached msq is a microsquirt file and does seem to have the correct spark out selected. I did notice you are using fixed duty dwell where the microsquirt manual is recommending the use of standard dwell. You also have hardware latency and as you have not got it running yet I don't know how you could have configured that value. Otherwise nothing overly stands out as obviously wrong.
Have you gone through the hall input section of the manual and checked you are connected correctly? http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/html/Mic ... .4-49.html Some of those triggers in your log were huge compared to the others.
Find the Manuals up top under Quick links: Manuals. :RTFM:
Cheers Luke
rickb794
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 6155
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 10:28 am
Location: Portland OR

Re: Microsquirt - incorrect spark output/configuration

Post by rickb794 »

Good catch Hemi!

Don't know how I wandered off the path there.

The CRS must be getting bad here!
Correctly identify your MS ecu here
Read the Do's and Don'ts to avoid the common pitfalls before starting your install or asking for help
Use only these manuals other manuals may cause brain damage or worse.
Kclement19
MS/Extra Newbie
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:46 pm

Re: Microsquirt - incorrect spark output/configuration

Post by Kclement19 »

slow_hemi6 wrote:A basic distributor has 1 pip per cylinder and turns at 1/2 crank speed, that's why they are 1:1 cam driven. 3 on crank = 6 at distributor.
You latest attached msq is a microsquirt file and does seem to have the correct spark out selected. I did notice you are using fixed duty dwell where the microsquirt manual is recommending the use of standard dwell. You also have hardware latency and as you have not got it running yet I don't know how you could have configured that value. Otherwise nothing overly stands out as obviously wrong.
Have you gone through the hall input section of the manual and checked you are connected correctly? http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/html/Mic ... .4-49.html Some of those triggers in your log were huge compared to the others.
I thought the 3 magnets were all I needed. The gentleman assured that the basic trigger is "good enough" since I'm not building a full blown race engine.

Regarding dwell. I'm not sure why its set to fixed. After contacting Crane Cams, they indicated that the ignition module I have controls the dwell internally and a fixed setting of 5 ms would suffice (See attached email). How do I achieve this? Could I leave it set to fixed and set to 100% duty or should i change to standard and set nominal, spark duration, and dwell time all to 5 ms?

I noticed the spark hardware latency setting, but I was not sure why the start up file was provided with this set at 83. I did not try to run it at 0 per the NOTE. Could this be my problem?

Regarding the hall effect connections (see below).
-HALL Blue signal wire to OPTOIN-
-HALL Red power wire to +12v
-HALL Black ground wire to SENSOR GROUND
-Additionally, OPTOIN+ connected to +12v
Note
1) no external shunt resistor used. The block diagram of my hall effect has "Rpu" in the block diagram which may be Resister Pull Up/Shunt??? See block diagram at link below. http://www.littelfuse.com/~/media/elect ... et.pdf.pdf
2) no cable shielding has been used
3) my above statement regarding using the TPS VREF is incorrect.. that was used for my MAP sensor (sorry for false info - I will correct).
4) WLED output connected to wire trigger wire on Crane Cams HI-6S ignition module

When rotating the crankshaft manually, the red LED on the HALL EFFECT lights up each time a magnet passed it indicating it is working. When running the engine with the points, Tuner Studio read a reasonably stable RPM (I should've grabbed another trigger log here, but I did not). I feel like the Hall effect sensor is working, but I'm not sure if any interference could be affecting the measurements. What does it mean if the bars are different heights in the trigger log?

Thanks for the comments so far!
slow_hemi6
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 4122
Joined: Fri May 07, 2004 3:33 am
Location: Australia

Re: Microsquirt - incorrect spark output/configuration

Post by slow_hemi6 »

What microsquirt have you got? The V3 microsquirt manual I linked to shows the VR input being used with hall sensors.
Find the Manuals up top under Quick links: Manuals. :RTFM:
Cheers Luke
Kclement19
MS/Extra Newbie
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:46 pm

Re: Microsquirt - incorrect spark output/configuration

Post by Kclement19 »

slow_hemi6 wrote:What microsquirt have you got? The V3 microsquirt manual I linked to shows the VR input being used with hall sensors.
I'm not exactly sure, but I purchased it from DIY Auto Tune in July of 2016 with the 8' harness for $369. I recall reading that previously and the gentlemen mentioned "if you have problems with OPTOIN we can try VR". I think I'll try this. Can you confirm all I need to do is move the BLUE wire from the hall to VR- and connect VR+ to +12v leaving OPTOIN- and OPTOIN+ disconnected?
Last edited by Kclement19 on Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
slow_hemi6
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 4122
Joined: Fri May 07, 2004 3:33 am
Location: Australia

Re: Microsquirt - incorrect spark output/configuration

Post by slow_hemi6 »

Manual shows no connections made to VR+.
Find the Manuals up top under Quick links: Manuals. :RTFM:
Cheers Luke
Kclement19
MS/Extra Newbie
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:46 pm

Re: Microsquirt - incorrect spark output/configuration

Post by Kclement19 »

slow_hemi6 wrote:Manual shows no connections made to VR+.
Ah, I didn't know how to navigate that manual at first. I see it says to use VR- for the signal and VR+ floating. However, another manual says the opposite for a hall sensor http://www.useasydocs.com/theory/vr.htm
-Connect Hall sensor (Collector/Drain) to VR+ input, connect 4.7 to 10K pull-up resistor to this junction, other end to Vref or +12V.
-Leave VR- unconnected.
-Leave OPTO+/OPTO- unconnected.

Whats the difference between the manual you provided and the manual above? Are these for different versions of micro squirt?
rickb794
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 6155
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 10:28 am
Location: Portland OR

Re: Microsquirt - incorrect spark output/configuration

Post by rickb794 »

There is only one manual for MS Extra code.

http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/Microsqu ... re-3.4.pdf
Correctly identify your MS ecu here
Read the Do's and Don'ts to avoid the common pitfalls before starting your install or asking for help
Use only these manuals other manuals may cause brain damage or worse.
Kclement19
MS/Extra Newbie
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:46 pm

Re: Microsquirt - incorrect spark output/configuration

Post by Kclement19 »

rickb794 wrote:There is only one manual for MS Extra code.

http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/Microsqu ... re-3.4.pdf
So what is the other website for?
slow_hemi6
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 4122
Joined: Fri May 07, 2004 3:33 am
Location: Australia

Re: Microsquirt - incorrect spark output/configuration

Post by slow_hemi6 »

B&G microsquirt code. It is pretty much done, ie not being developed or any features added. If you want the features the extra code offers then you use the code and associated manual.
Find the Manuals up top under Quick links: Manuals. :RTFM:
Cheers Luke
Kclement19
MS/Extra Newbie
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:46 pm

Re: Microsquirt - incorrect spark output/configuration

Post by Kclement19 »

Update:
-Spark Harware Latency set to zero => no change, trigger log erratic
-Connected hall to VR input per manual => no change, trigger log erratic
-Reconnected hall as it was originally with OPTO & turned off "tach period rejection" => it runs and the trigger logs look great.

Can anyone explain why "tach period rejection" being on was causing my problem of an erratic trigger log? Is it alright to run the engine with only "noise filtering" enabled? Is there anyway to "tune" the "tach period rejection" like you can tune the noise filtering?

Thanks,
Kelly
hybrid
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 1275
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:23 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Re: Microsquirt - incorrect spark output/configuration

Post by hybrid »

I doubt you'll need noise filtering at all with a hall sensor.
Noise affects a VR signal more than hall/opto.

This is the problem with just loading someone elses tune instead of doing your own.

There are at least 3 settings you have mentioned (one of which you confirmed caused your issues) that you generally would not touch unless you had issues.

1) Spark latency - you should only set this if you have set a fixed advance when testing and your advance is creeping as RPM increases.
2) tach period rejection - only required if you have noise issues
3) Noise filtering - only required if you have noise issues

Try it with all those settings turned off. There's no use having features turned on that you don't need. Especially ones which may screw with your ignition input/output.
Do not load someone elses tune and expect it to work for you!
Image
Kclement19
MS/Extra Newbie
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:46 pm

Re: Microsquirt - incorrect spark output/configuration

Post by Kclement19 »

hybrid wrote:I doubt you'll need noise filtering at all with a hall sensor.
Noise affects a VR signal more than hall/opto.

This is the problem with just loading someone elses tune instead of doing your own.

There are at least 3 settings you have mentioned (one of which you confirmed caused your issues) that you generally would not touch unless you had issues.

1) Spark latency - you should only set this if you have set a fixed advance when testing and your advance is creeping as RPM increases.
2) tach period rejection - only required if you have noise issues
3) Noise filtering - only required if you have noise issues

Try it with all those settings turned off. There's no use having features turned on that you don't need. Especially ones which may screw with your ignition input/output.
Yeah, I'm new to this software. My original questions were all based on "what can affect input to output" of the ignition circuit. No one mentioned noise filtering. Now that I know how to get around the problem i had, but I don't know why it adversely affected the circuit. Sounds like the general guidance is to turn it off.

Regarding spark latency, i have noticed some retard as the RPM increases. What are typical values for this parameter? All i've seen so far is "small number" from the help menu.
hybrid
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 1275
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:23 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Re: Microsquirt - incorrect spark output/configuration

Post by hybrid »

Start with 30 and see what happens.
Increase the number until the problem goes away.
Do not load someone elses tune and expect it to work for you!
Image
Post Reply