Help with first wasted spark project

[Tonyorlo]

Dave, "
I really like that idea, seeing that I had to pay $250 for auto zones cheapest d585 coils. I also wondered about Ford EDIS coils. Do you have a make and model that I can reference those coils to? I wonder if I will have problems because I am set up to use logic type coils?

Going full sequential would be nice but is not a big concern for me.

I will check the connections, but I have done that multple times. The coils are fed from the fuel pump relay. All the connections are soldered and heat shrunk. They either have 15 or 20 amp fuses.

I have check all the mechanicals on the engine multiple times, I think its a ignition problem. Like Rick suggested it almost has to be a power supply problem. I have tried almost everything else.

[ChevelleFan]

Tony,

Try 2005 VW Beetle 2.0. Those are logic coils, so I don't think you should have to modify anything.

http://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/volk ... +coil,7060

-Dave

[Tonyorlo]

Wow those are cheap, and I think they would be easier to package than the 8 LS coils. The only downside to them is the connector, it costs as much as the coils from rock auto. I know there aren't any VWs in the local junkyards, I'm headed to Columbus for 2 weeks in the end of August, I'm sure I can source some connectors there.

Edit: Looking on EBay connectors can be bought for relatively cheap. Reading through the megamanual it looks like I will need the 6 pin coils for a V8, because I will need all 4 spark outputs on both sides.

[ChevelleFan]

I don't think you want the 6-pin connectors, you want the 4-pin. (you'll need qty 2) You want the coil that has the 4 spark plug terminals in a square, not inline. (032 905 106B - 4 tower wasted spark logic coil) See page 85, http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/MS2V30_Hardware-3.4.pdf

Two spark outputs to one coilpack, two spark outputs to the other coilpack. You don't necessarily need to run SpkA + SpkB to one coil pack, and SpkC + SpkD to the other. ScottRS lamented about this in his PM to me, wishing that he had given it a little more thought before he wired it all up, solely for the purpose of keeping the spark plug wire runs neater.

-Dave

[rickb794]

With a 1-8-7-2-6-5-4-3 firing order no matter how you wire 4 double ended coils you will have 4 plug wires crossing the motor.

(US) Drivers side is odd - A will be 1 - 6, B 8 - 5, C 7 - 4, D 2 - 3.

[ChevelleFan]

Not necessarily. With wasted spark coils, a given pair of wires on a coil can be arranged either way, right?

Why wouldn't either of the layouts below work on a 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 (conventional SBC firing order), with no crossing over? I hope my crude ASCII drawing is clear. the {....} is the 4-pin connector on the VW coils.

-Dave

Code: Select all

	    -----------------
       |               |
SpkA   |   1       6   |
       |               |
SpkB   |   5       8   |
       |               |
       |----{....}-----|


	    -----------------
	    |               |
SpkC   |   7       4   |
       |               |
SpkD   |   3       2   |
       |               |
       |----{....}-----|

===============================
	    -----------------
	    |               |
SpkA   |   1       6   |
       |               |
SpkD   |   3       2   |
       |               |
       |----{....}-----|


	    -----------------
	    |               |
SpkB   |   5       8   |
       |               |
SpkC   |   7       4   |
       |               |
       |----{....}-----|

[Tonyorlo]

Ah, that might be a deal breaker for me. I wouldn't want to have to cross the engine compartment with plug wires. That's why I was thinking I would use the 6 pin. I could run all 4 Sparks to each side like I have it now. Like how it's described on page 84. I could keep both sides seperate using that.

[ChevelleFan]

Huh, I never considered doing it like that. I like it.

-Dave

[Tonyorlo]

http://m.ebay.com/itm/AUDI-VW-Skoda-VAG ... Ciid%253A6

Connectors aren't too terribly expensive. I may go this route if I can get everything straightened out.

[Tonyorlo]

Well I think my problem was fuel related. After discussing the problem with a rep from Diyautotune he suggested my VE table was too lean. So I started to richen it up, and the backfiring has been reduced a lot. I still get it, but not as much. I have started adding AE to the mix now. I am clearly down on power still, especially off idle. Do I just need to take the truck out and run it with VE live running? Will it eventually smooth itself out? I may post up a shot of my AFR table to see what everyone thinks of it.

I bought megalog viewer HD the other day, but I really don't understand how to use the extra features.

[ChevelleFan]

Well I think my problem was fuel related. After discussing the problem with a rep from Diyautotune he suggested my VE table was too lean. So I started to richen it up, and the backfiring has been reduced a lot. I still get it, but not as much. I have started adding AE to the mix now. I am clearly down on power still, especially off idle. Do I just need to take the truck out and run it with VE live running? Will it eventually smooth itself out? I may post up a shot of my AFR table to see what everyone thinks of it.

YES. Drive it for at least 15 minutes, preferably 30 minutes with VE AL running. Try to get as many of the cells on the heat map on the right side of the VEAL window green. (that means it has analyzed a sufficient amount of data). Slow, steady throttle movements; don't be stabbing the throttle. You shouldn't even begin to play with AE until the VE table is working well. Your AFR table looks ok, athough I still think you're lean at 75kPA and above from 1900-4000 rpm.

You've never mentioned what kind of cam/heads you have on this. Stall converter? What RPMs are you at cruising 35/45/55 mph?

-Dave

[rickb794]

I take them out and drive them as soon as I get it to start reliably and a stable idle.
You don't want it stalling or hard starting if you are out on the road.
The cells directly above your (9) idle cells should go progressive and significantly richer to aid with throttle response.
When you mash the throttle the first thing a Speed Density setup sees is the MAP rising.
Then the motor RPM will catch up, so richening the cells above idle with a taper so the cells next to the idle are not overly rich will improve throttle response.

Here are my generic tuning notes,
Always start tuning with the hot idle, get the motor good and hot. Thermostat must be open.
Make sure you are out of any trim areas WUE ASE etc.
Remember WUE should end at 100% just before or very near the thermostat set point (you can fine tune this later)
You should not be using any of these for hot idle, and you cant tune a cold motor.
You tune a hot motor and then adjust the trims to get it to run cold.

To tune idle first disable closed loop idle control. Set idle speed manually
Disable O2 correction, & always tune on a fully warmed motor.
Add 1 or 2 degrees in the spark table below your target idle speed.
(this will help the motor recover from a sag, especially automatic trans)
Check that WUE ends at no less than 100% and at a temp slightly lower than tstat opening. (100% is no change to the calculated fuel.)
Make all the cells used for normal idle (a square of 9 cells) in the lower left of your VE table the same number.
Start the motor and adjust the throttle stop so the motor will run steady 700 - 900 rpm.
Then highlight all the cells in the lower left corner, and use the up or down arrows to change them all.
Adjust to make the motor happy not shooting for a specific AFR.
(many try to set at 14.7, few if any motors will idle there)
You want the smallest number that provides a smooth stable idle (lean best)
Note the AFRs in that area and change your AFR table so Auto Tune does not change them back.
(I lock out those cells when using Auto Tune.)
Another reason to adjust the AFR table in the idle area is O2 correction will try to steer AFRs in that direction
Then you can make final adjustments to the individual cells to fine tune.
Always make final tuning adjustments on a fully warmed up motor (thermostat open).
Then if auto put trans in gear and fine tune again (different cells).

Now you can enable closed loop idle and return the throttle stop to just barely open.
I set the throttle stop to just barely open because gack from the PCV will collect around the blade opening and close it up over time.
Not closed so far it sticks (if using closed loop idle).

All of the other adjustments use the hot idle settings as a base and modify them for different conditions.
Now once a day you have the chance to make observations for altering WUE settings.
Also cranking squirts and ASE

[ChevelleFan]

Any luck with VE Analyze Live, Tony?

-Dave

[Tonyorlo]

Sorry for the delayed response. I was supposed to get the truck aligned tomorrow and I planned to run it every evening using VE analyze. I'm not able to get the truck in untill next Monday now. I really don't feel comfortable driving it on the highway because of the current alignment.

Here are some specs

Cylinder Heads:

Cast iron "vortec" heads
1.25 diameter valve springs
Hardened retainers and springs
2.02 swirl polished intake valves
1.60 swirl polished exhaust valves
1.5 long slot, stamped steel rockers
Hardened push rods

Cam Specs:

Cam Type: Flat Tappet
.480 Intake .486 Exhaust
224 Intake / 230 Exhaust duration
@ .050 - 112 degree lobe separation

2800 RPM stall converter
3.73 rear end ratio

As for cruising, I haven't drove it enough on the highway to know. I am going to play with the AFR table. Thanks a lot for all the advice guys, I'll post after I get some seat time in it. I guess I just can't believe the fuel was that far off to cause all these problems.

[Tonyorlo]

Got the truck aligned, but I didn't spend a lot of time on the road with it. I am still getting the backfiring or "popping" out of the exhaust. How much time does it normally take to get a trouble area in the table worked out with VE analyze? Under light throttle during cruise is when it's bad. If I accelerate or drop it down a gear it does not happen nearly as much. I have the timing advanced enough in those areas I think.

[hybrid]

Got the truck aligned, but I didn't spend a lot of time on the road with it. I am still getting the backfiring or "popping" out of the exhaust. How much time does it normally take to get a trouble area in the table worked out with VE analyze? Under light throttle during cruise is when it's bad. If I accelerate or drop it down a gear it does not happen nearly as much. I have the timing advanced enough in those areas I think.

It depends how far out it is, and how much authority you have given TunerStudio VEAL to make changes.

[ChevelleFan]

I don't recall having that much trouble with mine. I do remember having some popping, mostly on decel.

I'm wondering if you should just start a new VE table. Save the tune you have as a reference point. Then go to Fuel Settings --> VE Table 1 --> Tools menu --> VE Table Generator

.. and fill in the values similar to this (this is my rough estimate of your engine based on the specs you gave). I'm pretty sure you said this was a 350ci engine.

-Dave

[Tonyorlo]

Ok, my current VE table is way off from the one generated. I will give the generated one a try tomorrow. I also tried a AFR table generator, the one I have is close but maybe a bit smoother. I used VE table generator on my last project and I didnt have problems with it.

Here are screen shots of my Current and generated VE, and AFR Tables.

[hybrid]

Wow.. yes that VE table on the left is very lean.
I think the new table will be a good starting point for you.

[Tonyorlo]

The VE table on the left is the new one. I just need to get it out on the road I guess and let VE analyze do it's thing.