Help with first wasted spark project

[hybrid]

Interesting... hopefully it was rich before then!

[Tonyorlo]

Those VE numbers seem high to me. I bought my injectors used with not a ton of info, maybe I have the wrong numbers in the settings and that's why the numbers are high?

[hybrid]

Possibly - why not send them to be cleaned and flowed?
Then you will know exactly what they're doing.

What model number are the injectors?

[Tonyorlo]

I purchased them used, the # on them is 280150756. From my research they are from a Turbocoupe, high Z 32lb at 45 psi. I run them at 58 psi using the LS fuel filter. Using calculators online they should flow 37lb at that fuel pressure. I listened to them with a screw driver today and they were all firing.

I took the truck for a drive today, maybe 15 miles running VE analayze the whole time. The popping from the exhaust did not get any better. It made changes to the table, but it was not far off from where I started. I would post a datalog but the file is too big to post.

Im not sure where I should go from here, but I feel like I've checked everything I can.

[hybrid]

If your timing is verified good, then is it possible this is a mechanical issue? Valve adjustment etc?

[Tonyorlo]

It really does seem like a timing issue, but I have verified timing multiple times. I have tried it at fixed before with the same results. I have checked valve lash with the engine running. I've checked all the exhaust connnections as well.

This may be a stupid question, but is it possible to the 180 deg out on timing with a crank trigger? I've always been told about being 180 out with a distributor, and I've always questioned the possibility.

[hybrid]

The reason 180 is mentioned on a distributor is because it runs at half the engine speed.
So 180 is actually a full revolution of the crank - it means you're on the wrong stroke when using a distributor.

If you're running wasted spark, then every crank revolution is same same.
If the crank trigger was out, your timing wouldn't be right.

[Tonyorlo]

Ok, that makes sense.

Looking at my datalog, my AFR is real choppy at cruise during steady throttle. The TPS bounces too at steady throttle. I think getting the injectors cleaned and tested like you suggested is a good starting point. My Coolant temp bounces too. The sensors are all grounded to the MS.

Ill include a screen shot

thanks for the help!

[hybrid]

I wouldn't be too worried about those sensor readings. They aren't crazy and won't really be affecting your tune.
You can just and keep your sensor wires as separate as possible from the noisy ones (injectors and ignition), but it looks fine to me.

The AFR is stable enough too. It's never going to be a completely flat line.

[Tonyorlo]

Ok, I did not know if a bouncy reading would cause problems. I will send my injectors out, and I may try new plugs and wires. I might try a new filter/regulator too. My cut to length plug wires might be the issue.

There's clearly a Rich issue because there is fuel in the oil and when I start it up i get black smoke from the exhaust.

Being that the AFR is close to where it should be, and the VE analyze has not changed the tables that much that this has to be something outside of the EFI. If the injectors were the problem, I would get lean or rich spikes right?

[rickb794]

Fuel in the oil is a really bad thing. Fuel has ZERO lubricating qualities, first of all. This is rapid death to many motors (especially flat tappet designs).

Another big issue with fuel in the oil is that is will affect the tune, the heat for operating will flash off the volatile elements which will sneak past mechanical gaps and or be gathered up by the PCV system and cause an artificially rich mixture during low speed operation.

Fix this issue first. If you injectors are clipped to the fuel rail you can pull out the injectors and place a piece of clean cardboard under them and then pressurize the fuel system by momentarily providing power to the fuel pump to pressurize the fuel system then watch for staining on the cardboard from injector dribbles. NO STAINING is acceptable, ZERO leakage is mandatory.

NOTE the standard safety issues apply when playing with pressurized fuel. No confined spaces, no wet areas of fuel to ignite, no adjacent flammable materials, no adjacent ignition sources, fire extinguisher handy, and an observer or helper with phone in hand, blah blah blah.

Compressed air, spray carb cleaner, and a new 9v battery will allow you to back flush a leaky injector. Check for missing inlet filter screens and clean existing screens.
Again taking proper safety precautions as carb spray cleaner is as flammable as gas.
Ventilated non enclosed area and use a spare injector connector and wire extensions and a helper to keep sparks from igniting cleaner.

[Tonyorlo]

I have not drove the truck since I discovered the fuel in the oil. I don't want to wipe all my bearings. I did not know that the fuel in the oil could put off volatile fumes that could cause problems.

It would be very hard for me to power up the injectors with them pulled from the bungs because of the tight spaces. I did not think to try to clean them myself, I need to do some research on that. It's not very cheap to have them cleaned and flow tested.

I did recently put a fire extinguisher in my truck, I feel much better about taking it on drives now.

I will correct any injector issues before I go any further. I do feel that it has to be a mechanical issue and not a tune. Maybe the injectors are the problem? If not it has to be the ignition.

[hybrid]

It's possible that the fuel in the oil is from previous bad settings.
You could drop the oil and replace it.

Run it with your current tune and see if the fumes return.
Are you running a PCV?

My oil was a lot stronger smelling when I was only venting to a catch can rather than actively pulling fumes out.

[Tonyorlo]

The fuel in the oil deffinetly could of been from earlier problems. I have 2 PCVs running into the intake manifold.

I am going to clean my injectors, and move the coils near the plugs so I can use stock wires.

My problem initially was backfiring which more fuel corrected it. Now I am having the popping constant while I'm driving it, I think it's ignition related. I don't see anything on my datalogs that shows the problem.

[rickb794]

I take exception to your use of 2 PCV's

If 2 PCV's was a good thing wouldn't OEM's be doing that?

I hope you have an intake with a decent sized plenum.
A PCV inlet location in the manifold can also cause issues if it affects a single runner more than others.
It seems to me that 2 PCV's would also affect the way you do idle control as you are letting a lot of air into the motor bypassing the throttle plate (without control).

Generally on a PCV system there are two ports in the motor, one allowing clean air in and one out via the PCV valve into the intake.

[hybrid]

Yes you definitely need a vent for clean air in as well as PCV to pull dirty air out.

[Tonyorlo]

I did not consider that. I would say the plenum is on the larger side, a Holley stealth ram, but I have never had high vacuum at idle so that could be a cause. I assumed more is better. I will defiantly make one a vent to atmosphere.

[rickb794]

Creating that much vacuum in a crankcase can be problematic as well.

Vacuum in the crankcase is good to a point, drag racers even use vacuum pumps!

However light weight parts can fail (thin aluminum valve covers) and shaft oil seals have to be installed backwards so they dont allow air to be drawn into the motor. Valve cover gaskets get sucked in, etc.
Not well suited for the street or practical.

The object in a street car is to remove the contaminates and make the oil last 3-6k miles. Racers change oil very often (10 miles), some every run.

[Tonyorlo]

Update, not really good yet but it may shed light on the problem.

I now have 1 pcv going to the intake manifold, and I vent to a breather. Separate sides of the engine. I mounted the coils on the valve covers and am using factory type plug wires. I pulled all my plugs and did a compression test. All the cyls were within 1-2 lbs of 150 psi.

The plugs were not consistent in color at all, some were black some were tan, and 1 cal the plug looked like it was new out of the box, white. Clearly something is wrong, but is it fuel, ignition, or both. When running VE analyze it pretty much goes in circles adding and removing fuel, but the numbers don't change much. I can hear all the injectors firing using a screw driver. I have verified timing with the light.

I really don't want to throw parts at it, but should I try new coils?

I did not send my injectors out to get cleaned, I think I need to try that as well as you guys suggested.

Any thoughts?

[Tonyorlo]

It has to be an injector problem. A bad coil would not cause a plug to look like new, and the random super rich condition after I start it. The injectors obviously need cleaned, I might as well have them flow tested as well.

Any recommendations on who I should send them to?