No Timing

dggt6 · Post by **dggt6** » Sat May 27, 2017 9:28 pm

Greetings guys,
I am looking for some suggestions for why I don't seem to be setting a timing signal when cranking. The TS ignition table does NOT show any movement whist cranking.

I have had this car and MS2 and EDIS6 running well for the last 3 years. I have just had the engine out for a crank regrind and I am now with the engine back in, it "back fires" out the intake manifold.
I didn't move the camshaft during the "re-build" and I am as sure as I can be that the new trigger wheel is in the same position as the old one.
The TPS, coolant, FIdle, Air intake temp read correctly in Tunerstudio.
Curiously the gauge showing warm up enrichment shows 100% not the 140% I have setup.
The fuel pump switches on (then off) when the key is turned.
RPM during cranking is about 170.
I am getting spark during cranking as the old school timing light flashes. Plug 1 does seem to be firing at TBC according to the timing light though.

I have run out of things to check, I hope someone can help me with a "lightbulb" or DOH!" moment please.

Many thanks,
Doug.

LAV1000 · Post by **LAV1000** » Sun May 28, 2017 12:55 am

Are you using a distributor set up to reed the engine rpm and timing ?
Seems like you are 180 degree off (crank rotation).

dggt6 · Post by **dggt6** » Sun May 28, 2017 2:51 am

Thanks LAV1000,
No distributor anymore, all EDIS and MS2.
Yes it does sound like I have it back to front but i can't seem to prove it, or solve it!
I am betting it will be something simple and stupid!

Thanks for your input,
Cheers,
Doug

DaveEFI · Post by **DaveEFI** » Sun May 28, 2017 4:29 am

If it was your old crank re-ground, the TDC should be the same. If a new crank, I'd first check the actual TDC is correct with relation to the trigger wheel. And do a visual inspection of the sensor/trigger wheel relationship.

With MS disconnected totally, EDIS should fire at 10 BTDC when cranking - you can check that with a timing light. It must be miles out to cause a backfire. It sounds to me like the trigger wheel has moved in some way relative to the crank - are you sure the pulley is on its keyway?

LAV1000 · Post by **LAV1000** » Sun May 28, 2017 6:25 am

dggt6 wrote:Thanks LAV1000,
No distributor anymore, all EDIS and MS2.
Yes it does sound like I have it back to front but i can't seem to prove it, or solve it!
I am betting it will be something simple and stupid!

Thanks for your input,
Cheers,
Doug

But where is the engine speed/rpm sensor located ?
Don't know much about edis, but how does it know/read the engine BTDC to ignite at the right time ?

grom_e30 · Post by **grom_e30** » Sun May 28, 2017 7:17 am

LAV1000 wrote:But where is the engine speed/rpm sensor located ?
Don't know much about edis, but how does it know/read the engine BTDC to ignite at the right time ?

the edis module has a 36-1 wheel on the crank, the vr sensor is connected directly to the module and it reads the crank trigger and fires the coils. the ecu can control when the spark happens via the saw wire. it also outputs a basic trigger type signal that the ecu uses for its rpm on the pip wire.

the edis will work on its own without input from the ecu but will be locked in to a timing of 10btdc.

LAV1000 · Post by **LAV1000** » Sun May 28, 2017 7:36 am

grom_e30 wrote:
LAV1000 wrote:But where is the engine speed/rpm sensor located ?
Don't know much about edis, but how does it know/read the engine BTDC to ignite at the right time ?
the edis module has a 36-1 wheel on the crank, the vr sensor is connected directly to the module and it reads the crank trigger and fires the coils. the ecu can control when the spark happens via the saw wire. it also outputs a basic trigger type signal that the ecu uses for its rpm on the pip wire.

the edis will work on its own without input from the ecu but will be locked in to a timing of 10btdc.

Ok now I get It, thanks.

+1 on Dave

dggt6 · Post by **dggt6** » Mon May 29, 2017 3:16 am

Thanks guys,
I am using the same crank and pulley but with a new trigger wheel.
There is no chance that the crank pulley can move from the keyway.
I may have installed the new trigger wheel incorrectly but it appears to be correlated with the timing marks, teeth and VR sensor.
I have attached a screen shot of the log while cranking. The spark table shows a 0 degree flat line.
What could cause the ignition to "flat line" like this whilst still reading RPM from the trigger wheel?

Thanks again,
Doug

grom_e30 · Post by **grom_e30** » Mon May 29, 2017 3:26 am

spark advance is showing 10 deg, it will be using the setting for cranking advance (im guessing 10) until the engine goes over the cranking rpm.

post the msq though

DaveEFI · Post by **DaveEFI** » Mon May 29, 2017 3:46 am

It is easier to check things using a timing light and scale. You can buy timing discs or make one yourself - I designed and printed out a strip which I glued round the outside of the crank damper. You obviously have to make sure your TDC mark is spot on.

Check you have 10 degrees of advance with EDIS standalone. Connect MS and set it so say a fixed 15 degree advance, and check on the scale. You can then calculate any error and enter as an offset. The go back to your correct map, and do a further check that the advance is correct relative to RPM.

dggt6 · Post by **dggt6** » Mon May 29, 2017 3:28 pm

Thanks guys,
will give these ideas a go very soon (when its not too cold in the garage).
Will also go back and check the logs before I pulled the motor out to view the timing during cranking.
Currently the timing light is showing cyl 1 firing at TDC on the crank pulley.
To isolate the MS from the EDIS, do I just disconnect the PIP and SAW wires?

Thanks again,
Doug

grom_e30 · Post by **grom_e30** » Mon May 29, 2017 3:31 pm

just disconnect the saw, the timing should then be locked to 10btdc

DaveEFI · Post by **DaveEFI** » Tue May 30, 2017 12:39 am

dggt6 wrote:Thanks guys,
will give these ideas a go very soon (when its not too cold in the garage).
Will also go back and check the logs before I pulled the motor out to view the timing during cranking.
Currently the timing light is showing cyl 1 firing at TDC on the crank pulley.
To isolate the MS from the EDIS, do I just disconnect the PIP and SAW wires?

Thanks again,
Doug

To check the basic EDIS timing when cranking, simply unplug the main MS connector.

dggt6 · Post by **dggt6** » Tue May 30, 2017 1:38 am

Well we may have solved it!
I braved the cold to check with the timing and the light would now not flash at all.
Long story short, there is zero resistance between the coil connection pins and about 9 ohm between plug 1 and 6 terminals.
I think its DEAD Jim!

Thank you all for leading me to a hopefully successful fix.

Cheers,

dggt6 · Post by **dggt6** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:12 pm

One again I was wrong!
New coil installed and still no go.

I get a fluctuation 1VAC from the VR sensor when cranking.
I get 12V at the coil and at Pin 8 on the EDIS6 and the EDIS ground is connected and good.

I followed the steps below and get results (no blinking test light) that indicate a dead EDIS. (These instructions are for a V8.)

Connect the alligator clip of your 12 Volt Test Light to the battery positive (+) Terminal.
It's important that you use a simple and unpowered Automotive 12 Volt Test Light.
Probe one of the following wires with the metal probe end of the 12 V. Test Light (you'll test them all, but one at a time):
Wire number 8 (Switching Signal for Cylinders #1 and #9).
Wire number 9 (Switching Signal for Cylinders #3 and #5).
Wire number 11 (Switching Signal for Cylinders #4 and #7).
Wire number 12 (Switching Signal for Cylinders #2 and #8).
Have your helper crank the engine (when all is set).
The 12 V. Test Light should blink On and Off as the engine cranks.

The 12 V. Test Light DID NOT blinked On and Off, this result confirms that the ignition control module (ICM) is BAD and needs to be replaced.
Here's the reason why: So far you've confirmed that the ICM is getting power and ground. You've also confirmed the crank sensor signal. If all these are present, then it has to create all 4 switching signals. Since it's not, the module is BAD.

Would you concur with testing method and the results I have got?
Is there any other way to check if an EDIS module is good or bad.

Many thanks,
Doug

LAV1000 · Post by **LAV1000** » Sun Jun 04, 2017 12:49 am

What happens if you jumpstart the car ?
In one of earlier logs battery voltage drops to 9Volt.
Did you ever charge the battery ?

dggt6 · Post by **dggt6** » Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:03 am

Hi Lav1000,
I have had the battery on charge for the last week before trying again today. She is nice and full now.

Cheers,
Doug

LAV1000 · Post by **LAV1000** » Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:04 am

dggt6 wrote:One again I was wrong!
New coil installed and still no go.

I get a fluctuation 1VAC from the VR sensor when cranking.
I get 12V at the coil and at Pin 8 on the EDIS6 and the EDIS ground is connected and good.

I followed the steps below and get results (no blinking test light) that indicate a dead EDIS. (These instructions are for a V8.)

Connect the alligator clip of your 12 Volt Test Light to the battery positive (+) Terminal.
It's important that you use a simple and unpowered Automotive 12 Volt Test Light.
Probe one of the following wires with the metal probe end of the 12 V. Test Light (you'll test them all, but one at a time):
Wire number 8 (Switching Signal for Cylinders #1 and #9).
Wire number 9 (Switching Signal for Cylinders #3 and #5).
Wire number 11 (Switching Signal for Cylinders #4 and #7).
Wire number 12 (Switching Signal for Cylinders #2 and #8).
Have your helper crank the engine (when all is set).
The 12 V. Test Light should blink On and Off as the engine cranks.

The 12 V. Test Light DID NOT blinked On and Off, this result confirms that the ignition control module (ICM) is BAD and needs to be replaced.
Here's the reason why: So far you've confirmed that the ICM is getting power and ground. You've also confirmed the crank sensor signal. If all these are present, then it has to create all 4 switching signals. Since it's not, the module is BAD.

Would you concur with testing method and the results I have got?
Is there any other way to check if an EDIS module is good or bad.

Many thanks,
Doug

Yep, no lights means dead, RIP

dggt6 · Post by **dggt6** » Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:20 pm

Trigger Wheels UK posted a replacement EDIS6 REALLY quickly! 9 days UK to Australia. Beat the EBAY ETA by 3 days!!!
I now have flashing lights on the test light and the timing light!

I still get backfires and small flames out the inlet ports! (I now leave the plenum chamber off. Looks best at night time!!!)

I have checked and rechecked timing marks against TDC. The timing light was flashing at about 4 degrees BTDC on cranking so I moved the VR sensor about half a tooth and it now flashes on 10 degrees BTDC.
The old distributor is still attached and was not moved during the crank replacement. The MS/EDIS fires No.1 plug as the distributor rotor passes by the old No.1 post. I put 2 more timing marks at 60 degrees apart and checked that the correct coil/plugs were firing against the dizzy and they were.

I don't know what else to check?

Thank for any ideas ,
Cheers,
Doug

LAV1000 · Post by **LAV1000** » Sat Jun 17, 2017 5:38 am

dggt6 wrote: I still get backfires and small flames out the inlet ports! (I now leave the plenum chamber off. Looks best at night time!!!)
Doug

Does it happen at the same cilinders or is it random ?

Make sure valve play is ok !!
Crank was rebuild, did you check the valves for sealing ?

What happens to AFR when it backfires into the intake ?

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