Help To Configure WLED and ALED to drive 4 coils.

[Tassuperkart]

Men.
I have a Microsquirt running a 90 degree odd-fire V-twin.

Im using twin plug heads and so one way is to drive a 2 channel Bosch trigger/igniter (whatever you like to call it) with a pair of automotive twin output coils. This has been working fine for quite some time but a fault developed that shuts the bike down.

I have fitted 4 x D585 coils with 2 coils currently sharing each ignition output.
Ive driven multiple trigger module inputs from one channel in the past with no apparent problems. However, I have a feeling this may be causing a strange issue with sudden gross enrichment at *blah* % throttle above 3000rpm. I dont have a log but its rich enough to see the WBo2 drop under 8:1 afr and the engine to stumble. At first i thought I had spark issues but the AFR's go grossly rich and it puffs black smoke.
its only done this since I have fitted the 4 individual coils.

I want to enable WLED an ALED to drive 2 additional coils but i need the outputs to match.
Ie: Ignition 1 = Wled
Ignition 2 = Aled.

I can then drive each coil from its own channel and see if this has anything to do with the running dramas.

Any help with configuring this? i dont really understand the procedure to re-purpose the wled and aled outputs as an ignition channel.

Cheers
E

[LAV1000]

Do you know what went wrong whit the first set up ?

Maybe put a diode in each pilot wire to make sure they don't effect each other ?

There are issues on electronic coils for putting to much dwell on it.
Take in consideration that when battery voltage drops it automatically compensates on more dwell.

[Tassuperkart]

The bike just quit one day. No sparks when in diagnostic mode.
I traced the dramas with a noid light and testlight to the Bosch "200" 2 channel trigger module.
The original coils are out of a Hyundai Excell, run at 3Ms dwell and 5 ms dwell on crank. Ive been using them for years in automotive setups.

Im pretty sure the trigger module is faulty but i was always going to use the the D585's anyway.

Im just suspicious of the sudden weirdness in the fuelling when the D585's went on. set the D585's at 4Ms dwell and 5.5 on crank.

E

[LAV1000]

At the "blah" point engine has a huge compression so igniters need more voltage to ignite compared to engine at idle.
Could it be that the high voltage energy found its way around the sparkplug ?
So check HT leads and plugcabs for leakage ?

Do the 585 coils make more voltage then Hyundai coils ?

[Tassuperkart]

At the "blah" point engine has a huge compression so igniters need more voltage to ignite compared to engine at idle.
Could it be that the high voltage energy found its way around the sparkplug ?
So check HT leads and plugcabs for leakage ? Do the 585 coils make more voltage then Hyundai coils ?

Thing is, its throttle position related, above or below it runs just fine. revs to buggery and makes good power.
The enrichment at the throttle position is confirmed by the AFR's running extreme rich. Missfiring will result in the WBo2 running extreme lean as the sensor cannot read raw fuel, only oxygen. So if no oxygen is burnt (missfiring) then a lean condition will display.

I actually havent scoped the D585's but even just by the ghetto method of listening to them its night and day difference. Hyundai coil deliver what you expect, a nice little blue spark with a light "tick" sound to go with it. As youd expect!
D585 deliver a loud "clack" sound in comparison with a thick solid spark. Just no comparison!
Im using zero resistance stainless wound wire suppression leads so Im quite sure I can rule out that part of the hardware.

E

[LAV1000]

Cofigure WLED and ALED see:
http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/html/Mic ... e-3.4.html
5.3 page 57 and 58

Since your 90 dgr Vtwin is 1/4 V8 it might work as wasted spark V8 ????

[Tassuperkart]

Cofigure WLED and ALED see:
http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/html/Mic ... e-3.4.html
5.3 page 57 and 58 Since your 90 dgr Vtwin is 1/4 V8 it might work as wasted spark V8 ????

Hi mate
Yes Im onto that that part. ive been through the manuals many times and altho I can find wiring solutions there, and plenty of references to being able to re-purpose the pins, I cant find any actual specific settings anywhere to do the job.

BOOST-ADVANCED tab/PROGRAMMEABLE OUTPUTS.
I can enable both wled and aled but there are several functions in the dropdown list that could work. DWELL is my obvious first choice but I really dont know hence my question as there are no specific answers anywhere in the manuals to help me.

Cheers
E

[jsmcortina]

BOOST-ADVANCED tab/PROGRAMMEABLE OUTPUTS.
I can enable both wled and aled but there are several functions in the dropdown list that could work.

In your first post you say that you want to use ALED and WLED as spark outputs - correct? If you want them as spark outputs, don't try to configure them as other functions instead.
e.g. if you configure ALED as a programmable on/off output it is NOT a spark output.

James

[dontz125]

The MS2 code doesn't natively support 'twin plug' heads with separate channels. As you have your .msq right now - V-twin COP - the only spark channels are IGN and IGN2. In order to have ALED and WLED firing concurrently with IGN and IGN2, you'd have to lie to the uS and set it up as a V-4 running wasted spark. Note that this will double your fuel delivery, so you'd have to halve your injector size setting. None of this should be necessary; unless I'm missing / forgetting something, the uS should be able to drive 2 coils per channel.

As noted in another post here, the D585 does very odd things when over-dwelled. When it decides it's had enough dwell time, it hard-cuts the dwell = fires NOW, regardless of where NOW is in the crank cycle. Your current setting of 4ms is coming awful close to that threshold. You should be fine with closer to 2.5ms.

[Tassuperkart]

BOOST-ADVANCED tab/PROGRAMMEABLE OUTPUTS.
I can enable both wled and aled but there are several functions in the dropdown list that could work.

In your first post you say that you want to use ALED and WLED as spark outputs - correct? If you want them as spark outputs, don't try to configure them as other functions instead.
e.g. if you configure ALED as a programmable on/off output it is NOT a spark output.James

Yep cool, but i dont know HOW to enable it as an ignition output see?
Plenty of mentions of it but no specific instruction or setting that i can find!

Cheers
E

[Tassuperkart]

The MS2 code doesn't natively support 'twin plug' heads with separate channels. As you have your .msq right now - V-twin COP - the only spark channels are IGN and IGN2. In order to have ALED and WLED firing concurrently with IGN and IGN2, you'd have to lie to the uS and set it up as a V-4 running wasted spark. Note that this will double your fuel delivery, so you'd have to halve your injector size setting. None of this should be necessary; unless I'm missing / forgetting something, the uS should be able to drive 2 coils per channel.

As noted in another post here, the D585 does very odd things when over-dwelled. When it decides it's had enough dwell time, it hard-cuts the dwell = fires NOW, regardless of where NOW is in the crank cycle. Your current setting of 4ms is coming awful close to that threshold. You should be fine with closer to 2.5ms.

Oh I think Im getting it now.... (lightbulb moment)

Im guessing there isnt actually a particular dialogue I can bring up to "switch" them on. I thought thats what the Programmeable outputs dialoge was for see?

So, say I specified, wasted spark V4 in setup, then wled and aled would become spark outputs by default? Wire up and go so to speak. Just dont try and use them for anything else!

James, this might be a worthwhile inclusion in the manuals. Perhaps what im missing may well be buried in there somewhere but going over both manuals several times in the Ignition setup section, where Id expect to find it revealed F-A to me.

Don
im aware of the isuues with some D585's triggering somewhat randomly due to too high dwell. The problem Im having is a gross over enrichment over a reasonably narrow band of MAP.
Its not really rpm dependant. Its just less of an issue below about 3000rpm. The thing starts immediately and runs smoothly to begin with and just runs richer and richer during warmup as well.
I pulled ALL warmup enrichment out and dropped the VE's in the idle area to below 5. Still running too fat! Low AFR and fuel smoke. Adjut the VE to below 4 and the engine just stops......
I have looked over and over the tune file looking for something that may have caused this but the only thing changed to date was the actual coils. I was thinking that perhaps, the pair of D585's on the one ignition output may have been messing with the ECU's head in some way.

Additionally, and FWIW, the ignition system and injectors share the same power relay. Clutching at straws i know but possibility of flyback voltage from the injectors doing strange things to the coil igniters??? I dont know.
I tried simply unplugging each (2nd plug) coil and running on the primary plug/coil alone but the enrichment issue persists.

Today, in desperation, I ripped the D585's out and rewired in the Hyundai twin output coil and the Bosch 200 2 channel trigger module. I didnt have time to run it this evening tho but Ill know more in the morning.

I hoping to prove that the D585's are causing the issues somehow by going back to the ignition system that what was working well despite the Hyundai/Bosch trigger setup having some intermittent fault (occasionally cutting out).
THAT was the reason I pulled them and fitted the D585's.

Ill let you know.
Cheers
E

[rickb794]

Just to be sure,
You must use resistor spark plugs.
And you need to use suppression plug wires, low resistance plug wires are not suppression wires and should not be used.

[Tassuperkart]

Just to be sure,
You must use resistor spark plugs.
And you need to use suppression plug wires, low resistance plug wires are not suppression wires and should not be used.

Hi mate. Leads are Eagle Ultra series 8mm zero resistance spiral wound suppression leads.They are new on the install.
Ive never bothered with resistor plugs. I cant get them in the tiny plugs I use as the second plugs in each head.
Ive tried resistor caps in the past and achieved nothing there.

This enrichening issue has only ever happened when using D585's. No missfires, no ECU resets. Just black smoke at mid throttle. Above mid throttle its perfect, down low its perfect. Only idle is consistently richer. Once off idle stop and say 2500 rpm fre-spinning it leans back to where Id expect it.

very peculiar!
E

[rickb794]

Good luck.....

Google "spiral wound plug wires problems"

The first result is "Truth About Ignition Wire Conductors"
https://www.magnecor.com/magnecor1/truth.htm

There are a lot more results worthy of reading.

[Tassuperkart]

So, the d585's hasve come out and the old twin output coils with the external Bosch 200 trigger module back in with a much neatened and re-designed wiring setup. I have added the recommended 1.0 uF capacitor to the coil power supply and 0.001uF capacitor to each MS ignition output right at the Bosch trigger module plug.... Just in case.

The overall tune and running has magically returned to pretty much normal with only incremental changes to light load running. AFR's are quite steady and the bike starts easily and reliably.
All i can say with this is this particular Microsquirt does NOT like 4 x D585 coils with the wiring setup the way it is. Go figure that!

I have NFI now.............

E