Strange die and restart issue with microsquirt

All questions about MS2/Microsquirt/Microsquirt module. See also MS2/Extra manuals

Moderators: jsmcortina, muythaibxr

Post Reply
mdlimy
Helpful MS/Extra'er
Posts: 73
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 1:03 pm
Location: Sandy, Oregon

Strange die and restart issue with microsquirt

Post by mdlimy »

2008 Ducati hypermotard 1100s that is turbocharged
ms2extra 3.4.2 firmware
Bosch 0 227 100 211 ign module mounted to a piece of 1/4" aluminum under the tail, with decent airflow over it
Stock coils
Bosch ev14 HighZ injectors

I never had this issue before I swapped motors. During the time of swapping the motor I took the opportunity to clean up the harness and move from the two externally mounted BIP373s to a Bosch 211 ign module. I believe this has something to do with my issue.


My Issue:

Do a wot pull through all the gears and its fine, do another wot pull a minute later than the bike shuts down randomly. I can power cycle the ignition and bump start it back to life while I am still rolling and it seems to idle fine and free revs fine but as soon as I release the clutch and put some load on the motor it dies again. The only way to remedy this is to put the bike in neutral and start it like normal with the starter, it will then run fine.

The shut down almost seems like ignition driver overtemp shutdown. What puzzles me is the not wanting to run under a load until its been started with the starter motor....The ecu has no way of knowing I am bump starting or using the starter other than cranking speed....and even so, why would it care?

I have ruled out the Microsquirt module its self by trying a brand new unit on the bike with the same exact issue.

I had a resistor installed in each low level igntion output signal to the BIP373s previously, I believe they were 1kohm but cannot be certain. Its been so long since the install that I cant remember the exact reason.

Documentation shows I don't need any resistors for the Bosch 211 module. But I am somewhat questioning this now....

Datalogs don't seem to show anything out of the ordinary during shut down. I even dropped my dwell time about as far as I could without getting break up....this still didn't help.

I have attached my msq but the log is too big so here is a link to download it from my dropbox
https://www.dropbox.com/s/m011g07u48t0j ... s.msl?dl=0

at 425second-450second you can see a wot pull through the gears with no issues.
At 470second I begin another wot pull at which the motor dies at about 475seconds.

Thanks in advance everyone!
08 Ducati Hypermotard 1100S (1100cc oil cooled 90* Vtwin) + Microsquirt v3, sequential ignition & injection + td04h 15g
grom_e30
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 4451
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:44 pm
Location: UK

Re: Strange die and restart issue with microsquirt

Post by grom_e30 »

i cant specifically see a reason for it cutting out in the log, but when you do try to restart it you do have a load of trouble syncing up with the rpm maybe have a look at the cam sensor and wiring
1990 bmw 320i daily driver with m20b25 ms3 sequential fuel, 380cc injectors, d585 coil near plug, home made cam sync, launch control, fan control, vss, homebrew egt logging what's next????
hybrid
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 1275
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:23 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Re: Strange die and restart issue with microsquirt

Post by hybrid »

There are lots of Microsquirts having reset issues due to noise on the bootloader wire.
Have you tied the bootloader wire to TPS VREF (5V) ?

If not, give that a try. It's helped quite a few of us with weird reset issues.
Do not load someone elses tune and expect it to work for you!
Image
mdlimy
Helpful MS/Extra'er
Posts: 73
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 1:03 pm
Location: Sandy, Oregon

Re: Strange die and restart issue with microsquirt

Post by mdlimy »

Bringing this one back to life with another log and msq. Im really stumped as to why I have to power cycle the ecu AND crank to start the engine after the cut out. I see no reason for the ecu to not function properly if I just bump start the bike....

I just rode the bike with the wastegate pinned open, and ran it all the way to redline multiple times, without a single issue with cutting out. So that rules out crank/cam sensor, in my mind.

Then, with the wastegate hooked up, did a couple pulls, and the cut out issue is back. It most definitely ONLY HAPPENS UNDER HIGH LOAD, I think this is key to figuring out the issue.

Hybrid- I did try tying the bootloader wire to the tps 5v vref, but that didn't help.

Grom_e30 - part of the reason it through a bunch of errors when trying to start had to do with a bad battery and some backfires. But I did find some issues with the engine speed sensor wiring which I fixed and that definitely helped clean up alot of sync errors.
2018-07-17_19.31.30.msl
(528.7 KiB) Downloaded 22 times
2018-07-17_20.07.22.msq
(119.65 KiB) Downloaded 19 times
08 Ducati Hypermotard 1100S (1100cc oil cooled 90* Vtwin) + Microsquirt v3, sequential ignition & injection + td04h 15g
rickb794
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 6155
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 10:28 am
Location: Portland OR

Re: Strange die and restart issue with microsquirt

Post by rickb794 »

It needs a power cycle probably because something (noise) has corrupted the working memory.
The working memory can be altered while the motor is running TS does this for many of the changes but they are not saved until you burn them.
A power cycle reloads the working memory from the last saved (burn) iteration.

You should start by stepping through the Do's and Don'ts.
I would thoroughly check and verify each point one at a time.
Correctly identify your MS ecu here
Read the Do's and Don'ts to avoid the common pitfalls before starting your install or asking for help
Use only these manuals other manuals may cause brain damage or worse.
mdlimy
Helpful MS/Extra'er
Posts: 73
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 1:03 pm
Location: Sandy, Oregon

Re: Strange die and restart issue with microsquirt

Post by mdlimy »

A power cycle by its self does not fix the issue. Like I stated in my quote below, I have to actually crank over the motor with the starter in order to get the bike to run normal again. If I just power cycle then bump start it, it will idle fine, but as soon as any load is put on the motor, it will die.
I can power cycle the ignition and bump start it back to life while I am still rolling and it seems to idle fine and free revs fine but as soon as I release the clutch and put some load on the motor it dies again. The only way to remedy this is to put the bike in neutral and start it like normal with the starter, it will then run fine.
I fail to see why the ecu cares as to whether I crank the engine to start it, or whether I simply bump start the engine while rolling. All though this is not the root cause, it sure has me curious.

All my wiring and grounds are by the book, I am very familiar with the issues that are caused by bad grounds and noise. I am just at the point where I have to start moving grounds, and separating wiring to eliminate noise, which I would prefer to not do, considering it is all correct.

The fact that I do not have this issue at all when the wastegate is open and there is no boost tells me that the root cause is from something that only happens in boost....Higher injector PW values causing noise? Ignition driver?
08 Ducati Hypermotard 1100S (1100cc oil cooled 90* Vtwin) + Microsquirt v3, sequential ignition & injection + td04h 15g
mdlimy
Helpful MS/Extra'er
Posts: 73
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 1:03 pm
Location: Sandy, Oregon

Re: Strange die and restart issue with microsquirt

Post by mdlimy »

I figured out the strange reason for not being able to bump start the bike after an ecu power cycle....the stock ecu is still controlling the fuel pump, and its not allowing it to turn back on :lol:

So that leaves me still trying to figure out a normal resetting issue with the microsquirt. I started another thread to try and diagnose my sync loss issue at cranking, maybe it has something to do with...maybe not.
08 Ducati Hypermotard 1100S (1100cc oil cooled 90* Vtwin) + Microsquirt v3, sequential ignition & injection + td04h 15g
kjones6039
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 1986
Joined: Sat Jul 22, 2006 8:02 pm
Location: Eureka, NV USA
Contact:

Re: Strange die and restart issue with microsquirt

Post by kjones6039 »

Just curious...... Why are you not controlling the FP with MS?

Ken
1979 Corvette - 383 CID SBC w/ Holley Pro-Jection 900 CFM TBI, 4-85 lb lo-z injectors & Walbro 255 pump
MS2 v3 w/extra 3.4.2 Release
36-1, Delphi LS2/7 coils in wasted spark, driven by v2.0 logic board from JBPerformance
Spartan Lambda Sensor from 14point7
TinyIOX from JBPerformance
R100RT
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 1038
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:45 pm
Location: British Columbia

Re: Strange die and restart issue with microsquirt

Post by R100RT »

mdlimy wrote:I figured out the strange reason for not being able to bump start the bike after an ecu power cycle....the stock ecu is still controlling the fuel pump, and its not allowing it to turn back on :lol:

So that leaves me still trying to figure out a normal resetting issue with the microsquirt. I started another thread to try and diagnose my sync loss issue at cranking, maybe it has something to do with...maybe not.
Sometimes strange things occur on bikes. This winter I opted to replace some original stock circuits and ended up redoing everything. V2 Microsquirt on a 1983 antique bmw basically.
Last years operation I thought was fine (I thought). First operation this year was a disaster with emf, failed ignition fuses and I managed to spike & kill my Inovate WB as well :cry: .
No problem, a pause to reflect/ reset, close overall review on technique and proximity of delicate runs to current laden ones (not an easy task on a fared bike) with relocation on a couple - and then an aggressive "shielding and drainage" campaign on pretty well everything. (I even re-shielded my 14point7 cable on the outside with - foil laid onto 1.5" wide cellotape, then cut into long 0.5" strips and wound around cable drained to frame and finished with a discreet fish net type sheathing for a normal look where visible).
The bike thereafter ran without emf issues but the tune was quite different and I've since pretty much started over recreating my VE tables, cranking and warm up values, and most likely timing again. Although I generally choose the difficult ways to do things - this last most likely an MS lesson I thought I had been schooled in (but hadn't).
1983 BMW R100RT Motorbike
Turbocharged - Water/Meth
Sequential Ignition & Fuel
"Perky Sleeper" that excites bike enthusiasts once discovered (or being passed)
Newest project - 1995 BMW K75 is V3 Microsquirt, "Turbocharger - Of Course"
mdlimy
Helpful MS/Extra'er
Posts: 73
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 1:03 pm
Location: Sandy, Oregon

Re: Strange die and restart issue with microsquirt

Post by mdlimy »

kjones6039 wrote:Just curious...... Why are you not controlling the FP with MS?

Ken
The stock ecu is still in place to run the dash, and it happened to still run the fuel pump fine so I left it. Now after this issue, I will most likely switch it over to the microsquirts control.
R100RT wrote:
mdlimy wrote:I figured out the strange reason for not being able to bump start the bike after an ecu power cycle....the stock ecu is still controlling the fuel pump, and its not allowing it to turn back on :lol:

So that leaves me still trying to figure out a normal resetting issue with the microsquirt. I started another thread to try and diagnose my sync loss issue at cranking, maybe it has something to do with...maybe not.
Sometimes strange things occur on bikes. This winter I opted to replace some original stock circuits and ended up redoing everything. V2 Microsquirt on a 1983 antique bmw basically.
Last years operation I thought was fine (I thought). First operation this year was a disaster with emf, failed ignition fuses and I managed to spike & kill my Inovate WB as well :cry: .
No problem, a pause to reflect/ reset, close overall review on technique and proximity of delicate runs to current laden ones (not an easy task on a fared bike) with relocation on a couple - and then an aggressive "shielding and drainage" campaign on pretty well everything. (I even re-shielded my 14point7 cable on the outside with - foil laid onto 1.5" wide cellotape, then cut into long 0.5" strips and wound around cable drained to frame and finished with a discreet fish net type sheathing for a normal look where visible).
The bike thereafter ran without emf issues but the tune was quite different and I've since pretty much started over recreating my VE tables, cranking and warm up values, and most likely timing again. Although I generally choose the difficult ways to do things - this last most likely an MS lesson I thought I had been schooled in (but hadn't).
Very similar to my situation....The bike ran fine last summer. Over the winter I tore it all down and built a whole new harness, and cleaned up lots of odds and ends, which is when this issue began...it must be some sort of noise issue.
08 Ducati Hypermotard 1100S (1100cc oil cooled 90* Vtwin) + Microsquirt v3, sequential ignition & injection + td04h 15g
mdlimy
Helpful MS/Extra'er
Posts: 73
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 1:03 pm
Location: Sandy, Oregon

Re: Strange die and restart issue with microsquirt

Post by mdlimy »

Quick update to close out this thread....

Wired the fuel pump up to the uS and the issue has gone away. Turns out the stock ecu was shutting off the fuel pump randomly for some reason and I wasn't having any reset issues with the uS. Once uS took control of the pump everything has been great.

Just have to sort out the sync errors during cranking but I have a separate thread for that, so consider this solved....and nothing to do with the microsquirt at all :mrgreen:
08 Ducati Hypermotard 1100S (1100cc oil cooled 90* Vtwin) + Microsquirt v3, sequential ignition & injection + td04h 15g
Post Reply