DIS no timing advance with bypass(SOLVED)(TUNE AND LOG)

[WillExoIX]

I did have some scope shots at one point, I'll have to find them. However signals are the same for HEI7/8 as far as between the ICM and ECU are concerned.

However, I've been running this setup for a year or so, maybe longer now with the MS, though I have used the GM DIS for many years longer than that with GM ECMs.

My setup;
LX9 (3500), external crank trigger (7x), because the LX9 uses a 56x similar to some LS engines and didn't work with my GM OBD1 EFI setup, where I used the earlier 60 degree V6 ignition system (before switching to MS), that I have used on my old Franken60, my Nissan L28 and now my LX9. The only difference between the internal and external setups is that my sensor placement is adjustable, though I have it very close to where GM places it in relation to crank angle, MS2 3.4.2 (even though I have an MS3 for it, just not installed yet).

The settings as far as in Tuner Studio is concerned are identical to HEI7/8, except for the trigger angle. This must be higher than 50* to use same cylinder timing instead of next cylinder timing. Even the GM ECMs do this, and has to do with looking at one set of 3 notches while cranking and switching to a different set of 3 notches. Now one other change that I had to make was switching from standard dwell to fixed dwell of 50%. I found that standard dwell ended up with too high of a dwell period (or rather too high of a pulse width) and would drop spark at higher RPM and/or boost. I tried down to 30% or so, but found 50% to work best.

This ignition system was used bewteen 1987 and 2004 or so on FWD 60 degree V6s, including the 2.8, 3.1, 3100 and 3400, along with the 3.4L in the 1993 to 1995 F-body.

I have a document that is about 80% done that relates to the HEI and similar DIS units, but haven't had a chance to finish it up to be happy with posting it. If I can maybe I'll put some work on it later to get it up in the next couple of days.

Any problems that occur are not software settings issues, if you use standard HEI settings, except for the aforementioned changes, it will work. Any issues are likely related to hardware, be it bad CPS, poorly routed wiring, or misplaced/incorrect wiring, etc.

I wish this were the case but there are several different DIS units apparently. James may or may not confirm this,
as there have been many people trying to work together to get it fully sorted out to work with MS and many have moved on to different things. There seem to be some variations to the input and outputs from both the ICMs and ECMs themselves, This coming from someone from GM who has worked with the DIS modules for the better part of 10 years IIRC. I won't name them unless they feel like poking thier head in to confirm.

At this point there is so much misinformation out there I choose to believe none of it until I get my O-scope and get mine working. It has been discussed that no two setups are alike, and thats why there has been such an issue getting all of the DIS units working with MS. What works for one does not work for another.

So until I get to probing mine and a donor vehicle to get these signals confirmed, I believe no one. Not saying anyone is wrong or that I'm trying to rub anyone the wrong way or be rude; Just saying that until I see it with my own two eyes, I won't believe it.

Six, feel free to post anything you may have here if you want, as there is no such thing as too much information. And if it turns out that all DIS units are truly Identical in respect to the 60*v6 engines then we can finally put this to bed and get confirmed information in the manuals

I truly do want us to work together as a community to get this done, So my apologies if any of that is taken the wrong way.

[WillExoIX]

I did have some scope shots at one point, I'll have to find them. However signals are the same for HEI7/8 as far as between the ICM and ECU are concerned.

However, I've been running this setup for a year or so, maybe longer now with the MS, though I have used the GM DIS for many years longer than that with GM ECMs.

My setup;
LX9 (3500), external crank trigger (7x), because the LX9 uses a 56x similar to some LS engines and didn't work with my GM OBD1 EFI setup, where I used the earlier 60 degree V6 ignition system (before switching to MS), that I have used on my old Franken60, my Nissan L28 and now my LX9. The only difference between the internal and external setups is that my sensor placement is adjustable, though I have it very close to where GM places it in relation to crank angle, MS2 3.4.2 (even though I have an MS3 for it, just not installed yet).

The settings as far as in Tuner Studio is concerned are identical to HEI7/8, except for the trigger angle. This must be higher than 50* to use same cylinder timing instead of next cylinder timing. Even the GM ECMs do this, and has to do with looking at one set of 3 notches while cranking and switching to a different set of 3 notches. Now one other change that I had to make was switching from standard dwell to fixed dwell of 50%. I found that standard dwell ended up with too high of a dwell period (or rather too high of a pulse width) and would drop spark at higher RPM and/or boost. I tried down to 30% or so, but found 50% to work best.

This ignition system was used bewteen 1987 and 2004 or so on FWD 60 degree V6s, including the 2.8, 3.1, 3100 and 3400, along with the 3.4L in the 1993 to 1995 F-body.

I have a document that is about 80% done that relates to the HEI and similar DIS units, but haven't had a chance to finish it up to be happy with posting it. If I can maybe I'll put some work on it later to get it up in the next couple of days.

Any problems that occur are not software settings issues, if you use standard HEI settings, except for the aforementioned changes, it will work. Any issues are likely related to hardware, be it bad CPS, poorly routed wiring, or misplaced/incorrect wiring, etc.

I can confirm however all wiring is correct. I can try isolating parts of the harness to see if it makes a difference, but I took extreme care in keeping everything separated from the plug wires or otherwise.

[Six_Shooter]

I've use 60* V6 DIS ICMs from pretty very wide array of years in the same vehicle by simply swapping them out. The pinouts are indeed identical between all years that use this style ICM (also confirmed with wiring schematics from Mitchel/GM). There are different ICMs for different engines though, and maybe people are getting the others confused with the ones you and I are using. The 3800 ICM is different than the 60* V6 ICM, which is why I specify "60* V6 ICM", and not just "V6 ICM". I'm sure there are manufacturing differences between the different manufacturers (Delco, Delphi, Bosch, Wells, etc), but as far as interchangability they all swap between.

Just to be clear this is the DIS that I am referring to:


Other GM DIS systems are similar and use many of the same signals, but can vary is timing (offset) and have more inputs and outputs as well.

[WillExoIX]

I've use 60* V6 DIS ICMs from pretty very wide array of years in the same vehicle by simply swapping them out. The pinouts are indeed identical between all years that use this style ICM (also confirmed with wiring schematics from Mitchel/GM). There are different ICMs for different engines though, and maybe people are getting the others confused with the ones you and I are using. The 3800 ICM is different than the 60* V6 ICM, which is why I specify "60* V6 ICM", and not just "V6 ICM". I'm sure there are manufacturing differences between the different manufacturers (Delco, Delphi, Bosch, Wells, etc), but as far as interchangability they all swap between.

Just to be clear this is the DIS that I am referring to:


Other GM DIS systems are similar and use many of the same signals, but can vary is timing (offset) and have more inputs and outputs as well.

Thats probably the case. And yea thats the one. My initial problem was following the online pinouts. They had me pin the CPS backwards. Once I made a pair of jumpers and switched the two it fired right up.

I'll have some time tomorrow morning to try some stuff out. Whats odd is that changing the trigger angle via the wizard does change the timing, but there is zero advance when revving. Even at idle its supposed to command about 21*, but the balancer shows 10* with the timing light. Suppose that would mean its in "limp" mode, and the ICM could be faulty. But I'd like to confirm with the scope and a control vehicle with the factory ECM.

I'll search out a DIS troubleshooting article tomorrow and see what happens.

I did have to add a wire on pin C of the larger connector, as the Buick didnt have a cluster tach. The one in the Camaro reads about dead on pulling from this wire.

[WillExoIX]

I think I may be a bit of a dumbass here so bear with me.
When Im adjusting the trigger angle via the wizard, I should be adjusting it to match what the MS says on screen and where its at in the SA table right?

I think I may have buggered up. Going off of the previous HEI setup I have been trying to adjust it down to the recommended 10* base timing for HEI with the bypass connected. So if my thinking is correct, I should be shooting for the same 22* at the balancer as is being shown on screen in TS?

Since I believe this is my issue (d*** I've got a good habit of screwing myself up), I should enable fixed timing at 10* with the bypass connected, and dial in the trigger wizard to match, correct?

I gotta get some more gas as I've run out doing all this testing LOL.

SMH

[jsmcortina]

When the ECU is controlling the timing, the strobed timing on the crank pulley must match the "Ignition advance" TunerStudio gauge.

James

[WillExoIX]

When the ECU is controlling the timing, the strobed timing on the crank pulley must match the "Ignition advance" TunerStudio gauge.

James

Yup. Thats exactly where I messed up. Once I had it dialed in to match the fixed advance value at 16*, everything works perfect once fixed table is turned back off.

The learning curve is what got me. I went into the DIS swap trying to treat it like the HEI distributor setup and was trying to set it at 10* base, and thats exactly where I messed up. The trigger angle setup flew right over my head. I get ahead of myself most of the time LOL.

I'll still get those signals for you James so we can make sure the info is documented and we can update the manuals. There are multiple different types of DIS per different engines, so I want to make sure there is no question about whats in the manual. I also want to confirm the DIS wiring for the manual as well so I will tackle that when I get home via PM with you.

Problem Solved.

[WillExoIX]

Well I'll be picking up one of the newer digital oscopes sometime.

The one I ordered had both volts/division knobs broken when I got it, so I sent it back and got a refund. It was listed as working but you know how ebay goes...

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