Update:trying to make 342 work (Req old FW for tbleshooting)

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Update:trying to make 342 work (Req old FW for tbleshooting)

Postby Talkiet » Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:22 am

Hi there - I have a Lotus 7 replica with a MS2 v3 that was running MS2/extra release 3.1.0. (The exact string from a port search was
"Found firmware: MS2/Extra release 3.1.0 20110112 23:25GMT (c)KC/JSM/JB MS2"
"Serial signature: MS2Extra Serial310"

I upgraded first to 3.4.2 and had problems (I'll come back to that if I absolutely must), then tried 3.3.3 and 3.2.5. After loading the saved MSQ I still have problems but the car starts, drives and values don't seem awful. There is however a consistent skip/miss and it's clearly not 100% healthy. I did grab a log on aquick drive around the block.

But: first of all I would like to flash the original firmware back and verify that the problem goes away - I really want to confirm that the issue is NOT a hardware problem I introduced (didn't unplug as much as I should have during the flash etc) before chasing down the functonal issue on the newer FW versions.

So I went looking for the precise firmware listed above and no luck. None at all. Usually my Google is strong, but today it is weak. The nearest I can find is 3.2.5 and it's definitely exhibiting a problem.

Please if someone can supply me a copy of the exact firmware I'd be so grateful. After I confirm flashing back brings it back to full health I'll then press on with troubleshooting the new issue and make a post with all the correct info (full description, MSQ, log and description of what I have done so far with a video of the engine running showing the issue). But first I really want to make sure I haven't blown something up :-(

I'm desperately hoping someone has a copy of the right firmware lying around still!

Cheers - Neil G
New Zealand
Last edited by Talkiet on Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Request for old firmware version for troubleshooting

Postby ashford » Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:16 am

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Re: Request for old firmware version for troubleshooting

Postby rickb794 » Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:08 am

You upgraded firmware Why?

Were other changes made in addition/at the same time as the upgrade?

Did the car just come out of a long term storage, or had it been in normal operation just prior to the upgrade?

The answers to these questions will help isolate the source of the problem.

However my thoughts are,

I would only make efforts to run 3.4.2 (3.4.1 has bugs) (3.1.0 is beyond vintage)

I would not attempt to use a MSQ from such an earlier version. You might import the tables, only as a starting place.
I would start a new project with a fresh 3.4.2 firmware load (clean slate).
The improvements (feature set, fueling, idle control, triggering) made in the newer firmware are worth the effort.
Older versions of the firmware may be more forgiving of a marginal install.
The newer manual reflects the knowledge base for installation that has accumulated over the many years since 3.1.0 was current.
Remember to remove power from the coil and injectors when loading firmware so you don't smoke the coil or fill the motor with fuel.

Calibrate your sensors and step through all the settings to verify they are correct for your setup.
Use only the new Extra manual http://www.msextra.com/manuals/ms2manuals/
I would also verify your grounding and power distribution are up to par.
Pins DB15-19 are run together to the motor, and there is no continuity to ground on pin 7 of the harness with it unplugged from the MS.
An old (v2.2?) or home made harness may not have adequate grounding on the noisy side of the board (pins 15-19 minimum) no less is recommended.
5 small wires are used to increase wire strand count, if you consolidate use "Monster" wire. 5 DB ground pins would also be the minimum recommended to prevent voltage drop.
Grounding a 6th pin (#14) might be beneficial if you are using low impedance injectors or have multiple ignition outputs.
O2 controller heater ground should not be connected to the MS (signal return only if separate). (O2 controllers have been found to be very noisy devices)
Resistor spark plugs must be used, Exotic plugs are not recommended (use the standard OEM plug for your motor unless your motor builder recommends otherwise).
There are reports of problems (EMI) with low resistance plug wires (regardless of the marketing claims associated with such wires)
Mount (and ground) the coil on the motor not the body. (mounting the coil to an insulated (ungrounded) valve cover creates an ignition broadcast antenna)
There are other considerations if using low impedance injectors found in the appendix to the manual that may be of benefit.

Do share your log and MSQ here for analysis, click on the tab below the compose window next to options tab titled "upload attachment".
Also a description of your install, make & model motor, injectors, trigger, ign output, etc.

Clean the plugs or try a new set?
Plugs can be cleaned with a propane torch to burn off any deposits (use a glove, heat tip till insulator glows).
Double check all outside supporting systems, many are quick to blame the MS for bad plugs or wires, low fuel pressure or quality, bad battery or alternator, etc. (5 pages of diagnostic help only to find they have non-resistor plugs installed!)
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Re: Request for old firmware version for troubleshooting

Postby Talkiet » Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:31 am

ashford wrote:http://www.msextra.com/doc/auth.php?f=ms2extra/files/release/ms2extra_3.1.0_release.zip


That file isn't there (The page looks god but there's an error after clicking on the link to download - HOWEVER you gave me a pointer to the exact filename and with that I was able to find a copy so many many thanks. I'll flash it and test when it gets to a reasonable time of the morning here so I won't annoy too many people :-)

Cheers - N
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Re: Request for old firmware version for troubleshooting

Postby Talkiet » Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:46 am

rickb794 wrote:You upgraded firmware Why?

Were other changes made in addition/at the same time as the upgrade?

Did the car just come out of a long term storage, or had it been in normal operation just prior to the upgrade?

The answers to these questions will help isolate the source of the problem.
[snip]


Everything you say is fair and reasonable and I really appreciate the considered response. Initially I want to confirm that the hardware is still fine (engine as well as MS2) however I will be looking to upgrade so your post is a great place to start checking stuff off...

- I upgraded firmware because I wanted to enable Can Bus dash broadcasting
- There were no other changes made at the same time.
- The car had been in regular operation up to the upgrade (set my fastest lap times ever at local racetrack last weekend!)

I should point out I've never done a full setup from scratch. I bought the car with the MS2 already in it and well set up. I'm pretty technical and computer minded (I should be - have been a programmer in the past, first computer in 1984, currently building a tyre temp monitoring system - https://youtu.be/THrqose6do4?t=331 ) so I'm not afraid of the electronic side of things but I'm not 100% familiar with the wiring of this car or the engine setup. For that reason I wanted to drop back to prior state and make sure it's all ok.

I have to admit I didn't disconnect the coils etc while doing the flash. The warning I read on the 3.4.2 didn't sound that dire. It was only when I looked at the readme for one of the older files that the warning sounded pretty serious - so I hope I haven't blown something up :-(

I also made sure to preserve sensor calibrations in the upgrades (from 310 to 342 and down again to 333 and 325) and the onscreen responses indicated that was all ok.

After each flash the engine started very easily but
with 3.4.2 - very fast idle (2000, rising slowly to about 2400 over 30 seconds) (MAY not have loaded msq afterwards)
with 3.3.3 - missing/skipping
with 3.2.5 - missing/skipping

The comment that older versions may be more forgiving of a marginal install is exactly the sort of reason I want to put the old FW back on first - I want to make sure I haven't made things worse and introduced something new I need to fix. I do want to get to current FW but I'd like to solve one problem at a time. That said, I'll post this and then go and grab the MSQ / LOG from the most recent run (which is only 3.2.5 but is exhibiting the problem clearly)... I don't know enough to interpret it without knowing what to look for - perhaps it will stand out like a sore thumb to someone who has experience reading them!

Cheers - Neil G
Last edited by Talkiet on Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Request for old firmware version for troubleshooting

Postby Talkiet » Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:02 pm

As requested here are the MSQ and an MSL from driving around the block.

The engine is a Toyota 20valve 4AGE Blacktop. injectors are standard I believe (I didn't build it) and I am not sure about the trigger wheel etc sorry. It has ITBs and is running factory ignition (no COPs for example). As of a week ago the whole package was known good (on 3.1.0) as it was racing around my local track faster than it ever has been before.

The engine starts very easily and idles at the correct level, however there are regular skips or misses. If the log doesn't shine a light I'll take a video so the issue can be heard as well. The car is still driveable and pulls ok. I obviously haven't nailed it, but there appears to be no real issue under load (I could accelerate up to around 5000rpm with no apparent stutters. On overrun and cruise though I can hear/feel the skipping.

I have a wideband but it's only wired to a gauge - not into the MS2. It is perhaps a showing a little rich (12ish) but that particular sensor I don't have that much faith in.

Any help gratefully accepted - if there's any details you absolutely need please let me know and I'll try to dig them out.

NeilG-2017-11-12_07.53.35.msq
Tune loaded on MS2Extra 3.2.5
(84.31 KiB) Downloaded 10 times

2017-11-11_17.12.47.msl
Drive around the block MSL
(429.68 KiB) Downloaded 5 times


Regards
Neil G
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Re: Request for old firmware version for troubleshooting

Postby jsmcortina » Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:10 pm

With such a short log (< 2 mins) and no wideband info in the log, I can't see anything.

Perhaps a better approach would be this:
1. load up the old firmware, calibrate sensors and load your old tune.
2. Connect up the wideband and get it reading the same number as the gauge.
3. warm the engine up and then log driving for 5-10 mins.
4. load current firmware, calibrate sensors and load your old tune. Fix anything warned about.
5. (engine should still be warm) then log driving the same way on the same route for 5-10 mins.

You now should have two datalogs that are very comparable on what the engine should be doing. These can be compared side-by-side to see what is different.

James
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Re: Request for old firmware version for troubleshooting

Postby Talkiet » Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:18 pm

jsmcortina wrote:With such a short log (< 2 mins) and no wideband info in the log, I can't see anything.

Perhaps a better approach would be this:
1. load up the old firmware, calibrate sensors and load your old tune.
2. Connect up the wideband and get it reading the same number as the gauge.
3. warm the engine up and then log driving for 5-10 mins.
4. load current firmware, calibrate sensors and load your old tune. Fix anything warned about.
5. (engine should still be warm) then log driving the same way on the same route for 5-10 mins.

You now should have two datalogs that are very comparable on what the engine should be doing. These can be compared side-by-side to see what is different.

James


Thanks for the thoughts. I haven't done a calibration myself so I'll go read about that now. I'm sure that's something I should learn about and do anyway!
I'm off to put the old firmware and tune on to see if it restores normal behaviour. If it doesn't then I must have broken something or stomped on some config/calibration/setup somehow :-(

Cheers - N
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Re: Request for old firmware version for troubleshooting

Postby rickb794 » Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:21 pm

12 ish is more than a little rich, and I would expect lean readings if it is miss firing. (unburned O2)

Check plugs? Calibrate O2 system? (not MS calibrate AFR)
It may be just fueling calc differences between versions.

The various MS sensor calibration is done via the "Tools" drop down menu

I would tie the Wideband into the MS so you can take advantage of auto tune at the least.
You are using Tuner Studio?

Oh, ITB's present some tuning issues, newer firmware provides a hybrid AN/SD scenario so that plays nicer. (actually labeled ITB mode).
I have no experience with that maybe someone who has BTDT can jump in here.

That MSQ is for 3.2.5 (FIY)
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Re: Request for old firmware version for troubleshooting

Postby Talkiet » Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:13 pm

Quick update, flashing 310 and loading the MSQ from before my upgrade to 342 has perfectly restored normal behaviour (even without sensor calibration) so I'm real happy about that.

Now of course I will have to look into how to figure out what about the new versions and my tune/setup don't agree with each other. I'll load 342 later today and follow the same process to load the msq and take a decent log.

I'll see if I can configure the wideband to log into MS - I think it's connected at the moment but it's not being used for fuel.

Thanks for the great info so far (and the link to 310 which meant I am able to confirm I don't have a new engine problem to solve!

Cheers N
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Re: Request for old firmware version for troubleshooting

Postby rickb794 » Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:44 pm

The MSQ you shared shows a single wideband connected and enabled above 9000 rpm! :)
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Re: Request for old firmware version for troubleshooting

Postby Talkiet » Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:29 pm

rickb794 wrote:The MSQ you shared shows a single wideband connected and enabled above 9000 rpm! :)


Chuckle. Either that was me setting it up on a VERY bad day or it's an artifact. It should also show a rev limiter at 8000 or 8300 :-)

Cheers - N
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Re: Request for old firmware version for troubleshooting

Postby rickb794 » Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:27 pm

Someone may have set that on purpose to effectively disable it without loosing settings
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Re: Request for old firmware version for troubleshooting

Postby Talkiet » Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:26 am

So things have calmed down and I am trying to get the firmware up to 3.4.2 again. I just tried using the update built into the new TS3.0.28 and the upgrade process went fine. I noted the possible need to go an adjust to old-baro during the upgrade.

However when I started the car it had the same issues - high idle, occasional miss. I did note there were a bunch of warnings after the upgrade and I took a copy of those. I also read somewhere else that the warnings were kinda only developer stuff and shouldn't be an issue...

Code: Select all
41 Warnings:
Warning: MSQ Units Mismatch for amap_table1! kPa found in current configuration, % found in MSQ, values were not converted to new units.
Warning: MSQ Units Mismatch for amap_table2! kPa found in current configuration, % found in MSQ, values were not converted to new units.
Warning: Parameter in .msq, but not valid for current firmware: No options found for Bit EcuParameter:IdleCtl equal to the proposed PWM Warmup
Warning: MSQ Units Mismatch for IACcrankxt! s found in current configuration, sec found in MSQ, values were not converted to new units.
Warning: Parameter in .msq, but not valid for current firmware: No options found for Bit EcuParameter:can_poll equal to the proposed Disabled
Warning: MSQ Units Mismatch for knk_trtd! s found in current configuration, sec found in MSQ, values were not converted to new units.
Warning: MSQ Units Mismatch for knk_tadv! s found in current configuration, sec found in MSQ, values were not converted to new units.
Warning: Parameter in .msq, but not valid for current firmware: No options found for Bit EcuParameter:EAEOption equal to the proposed ON with lag compensation
Warning: MSQ Units Mismatch for pwmidle_close_delay! s found in current configuration, sec found in MSQ, values were not converted to new units.
Warning: MSQ Units Mismatch for pwmidle_pid_wait_timer! s found in current configuration, sec found in MSQ, values were not converted to new units.
Warning: MSQ Units Mismatch for pwmidle_targ_ramptime! s found in current configuration, sec found in MSQ, values were not converted to new units.
Warning: MSQ Units Mismatch for smap_injadv3! ITB found in current configuration, % found in MSQ, values were not converted to new units.
Warning: MSQ Units Mismatch for EAEAWCKPAbins! ITB found in current configuration, kpa found in MSQ, values were not converted to new units.
Warning: MSQ Units Mismatch for EAESOCKPAbins! ITB found in current configuration, kpa found in MSQ, values were not converted to new units.
Warning: baroCorrVals array size does not match the currently loaded configuration,
   rescaled .msq values to match configuration.
Warning: baroCorrDelta array size does not match the currently loaded configuration,
   rescaled .msq values to match configuration.
Warning: MSQ Units Mismatch for fc_ego_delay! s found in current configuration, seconds found in MSQ, values were not converted to new units.
Warning: MSQ Units Mismatch for pwmidle_shift_open_time! s found in current configuration, sec found in MSQ, values were not converted to new units.
Warning: MSQ Units Mismatch for smap_table1! ITB found in current configuration, % found in MSQ, values were not converted to new units.
Warning: MSQ Units Mismatch for RotarySplitLoad! ITB found in current configuration, % found in MSQ, values were not converted to new units.
Warning: Parameter in .msq, but not valid for current firmware: No options found for Bit EcuParameter:testop_coil equal to the proposed CoilA
Warning: Parameter in .msq, but not valid for current firmware: No options found for Bit EcuParameter:testop_inj equal to the proposed Neither
Warning: MSQ Units Mismatch for smap_table3! ITB found in current configuration, % found in MSQ, values were not converted to new units.
Warning: Parameter in .msq, but not valid for current firmware: No options found for Bit EcuParameter:idleadvance_on equal to the proposed On
Warning: MSQ Units Mismatch for idleadvance_delay! s found in current configuration, sec found in MSQ, values were not converted to new units.
Warning: idleadvance_curve array size does not match the currently loaded configuration,
   rescaled .msq values to match configuration.
Warning: idleadvance_loads array size does not match the currently loaded configuration,
   rescaled .msq values to match configuration.
Warning: MSQ Units Mismatch for smap_injadv1! ITB found in current configuration, % found in MSQ, values were not converted to new units.
Warning: MSQ Units Mismatch for smap_injadv2! ITB found in current configuration, % found in MSQ, values were not converted to new units.
Warning: MSQ Units Mismatch for fmap_trim1! ITB found in current configuration, % found in MSQ, values were not converted to new units.
Warning: MSQ Units Mismatch for fmap_trim1doz! ITB found in current configuration, % found in MSQ, values were not converted to new units.
Warning: MSQ Units Mismatch for fmap_table1! ITB found in current configuration, % found in MSQ, values were not converted to new units.
Warning: MSQ Units Mismatch for fmap_table3! ITB found in current configuration, % found in MSQ, values were not converted to new units.
Warning: MSQ Units Mismatch for fmap_table1doz! ITB found in current configuration, % found in MSQ, values were not converted to new units.
Warning: MSQ Units Mismatch for fmap_table3doz! ITB found in current configuration, % found in MSQ, values were not converted to new units.
Warning: MSQ Units Mismatch for fmap_trim2! ITB found in current configuration, % found in MSQ, values were not converted to new units.
Warning: MSQ Units Mismatch for fmap_trim3! ITB found in current configuration, % found in MSQ, values were not converted to new units.
Warning: MSQ Units Mismatch for fmap_trim4! ITB found in current configuration, % found in MSQ, values were not converted to new units.
Warning: MSQ Units Mismatch for fmap_trim2doz! ITB found in current configuration, % found in MSQ, values were not converted to new units.
Warning: MSQ Units Mismatch for fmap_trim3doz! ITB found in current configuration, % found in MSQ, values were not converted to new units.
Warning: MSQ Units Mismatch for fmap_trim4doz! ITB found in current configuration, % found in MSQ, values were not converted to new units.


Some of those look fine (rescaling values) but others look bad "values were not converted to new units"...

I'm hesitant about running the engine for any period of time with these new settings to get another log (There is one on a previous post which had the same symptoms and unchanged tune - except for old-baro now being enabled)

Is there a smoking gun in here? There are hints in there about idlecontrol.

Cheers - Neil G
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Re: Update:trying to make 342 work (Req old FW for tbleshoot

Postby rickb794 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:24 pm

Looks to me like a MSQ that has been folded, spindled, and mutilated?
First create a restore point where you are at
Then I'd start a new project and give it a Digital mind wipe by using the default tune?
You will need to go through all the settings and then start tuning.
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Re: Update:trying to make 342 work (Req old FW for tbleshoot

Postby Talkiet » Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:30 pm

The tune was done on a dyno and was notably better than the last road tune. Do I have any options for keeping all the clever stuff in the well sorted 310 tune? I haven't mixed and matched or setup from scratch before.

If I go through and screenshot everything in 310, could I then go through and replicate that in a 342 setup, then import just the appropriate tables etc? If that's a valid approach, what are the tables and parameters I should export/import? (Is it possible to do that or would I be copying and entering tables of data manually?)

It seems that either there's something not being carried over correctly between 310 and 342 (in fact to ANYTHING newer than 310) or there's a difference in the way all newer firmwares do something which would suck.

Now I know I can drop back to 310 and a tune that works I am not too scared of playing around - it would be useful to know if my proposed approach above is the best idea though.

Cheers - N
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Re: Update:trying to make 342 work (Req old FW for tbleshoot

Postby Talkiet » Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:25 pm

Finally think I got it sorted. Took it back to 310 and screenshotted everything :-)

Loaded 342 and it said there were no differences between the loaded tune and the ECU. Went through every screen one by one and everything was there EXCEPT it had lost all the idle control settings! Set them manually back to what the screenshots showed me (as close as I could - the window contents are quite different between 310 and 342) and tried again and the car seems back to it's normal self.

It's way in the back of the garage at the moment but I will get it out tomorrow and take it for a drive and make sure I get a log. The wideband is connected but it seems to be misbehaving so that may not be helpful.

But at the moment it looks like it's resolved. Now I need to remove the dash and get the ECU out to add a CANbus connector. Any traps for young players there?

Cheers - N
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