Idle is not running correctly Close loop or open loop

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Idle is not running correctly Close loop or open loop

Postby shawnaj7731 » Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:37 pm

2017-11-24_01.27.15.msq tune to load..msq
(119.36 KiB) Downloaded 4 times
I have the MSPNP2 and I been messing with my tune now for about 4-6 months trying to get it right. I reached out to numerous people tried almost everything possible that I can think of. I just can not get the idle cold start and warm up to be consistent in open loop or closed loop. I can get the wot and cruising decent but the idle either hunts really bad or shuts the car down I played with almost every setting possible. If i posted a log is it possible that someone with experience can take a look at what i am missing or what i am doing wrong. I went to bring the car to a local tuner here in Virginia and was quoted nearly 1500 to 2000 to tune it and I just cant spend that nor justify it. I been reading and researching and testing and trying everything. My car is a 1990 mustang Heads cam intake exhaust, supercharged, with an intercooler. I am running a a1000 fuel pump with fuel pressure at 44psi set for boost referenced with 60lb injectors. I tried anywhere fro 12 to 22 degrees of timing and just cant get it right no matter what I do in open loop and closed loop. I try something almost every day to get it right i am just throwing in the towel at this point and figured i would ask you all directly. . The afr meter is a NGK powerdex . I have the tunerstudio MSUltra and even bought the megalog viewer hd to help and i just cant get it. If anyone can give any assistance it would greatly appreciate. I can take what ever log is needed if it helps.
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2017-11-23_15.25.32.msl
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1990 Mustang GT, Vortech V3 Sci I/C 10.5 psi, 331 stroker, AFR 185 Heads, trickflow trk heat intake 3.73 gear,Aeromotive A1000 fuel pump, Aeromotive Fpr fuel rails , SD 60lb inj fuel pump 3G alt koni susp. ignition MSD & 6Al, NGK Powdex AFR meter, MSPNP2 , BBK headers with SLP LM Axle back.
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Re: Idle is not running correctly Close loop or open loop

Postby shawnaj7731 » Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:39 pm

2017-11-24_01.27.15.msq tune to load..msq
(119.36 KiB) Downloaded 6 times
Here is a copy of the tune.
1990 Mustang GT, Vortech V3 Sci I/C 10.5 psi, 331 stroker, AFR 185 Heads, trickflow trk heat intake 3.73 gear,Aeromotive A1000 fuel pump, Aeromotive Fpr fuel rails , SD 60lb inj fuel pump 3G alt koni susp. ignition MSD & 6Al, NGK Powdex AFR meter, MSPNP2 , BBK headers with SLP LM Axle back.
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Re: Idle is not running correctly Close loop or open loop

Postby rickb794 » Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:03 am

I would never consider paying $2000 for a tune. Even $1000 is too much.

I'd suggest tuning it in SD mode without the MAF first (as long as you have an appropriate MAP sensor)(and a good working wide band O2).
Start a new project for this so you can easily go back to where you are.
This will give you some confidence and you will get more comfortable tuning.

Or maybe someone can help you with the MAF, I have not dipped my toes in that water.
This is my brain on MegaSquirt!
Use only these manuals http://www.msextra.com/manuals/
Avoid the common pitfalls, Read this before start http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=101&t=65757
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Re: Idle is not running correctly Close loop or open loop

Postby hybrid » Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:47 pm

I just spent two hours on the dyno yesterday. We tuned ourselves, but it was $140/hr
For them to tune it, it was only an extra $40/hr, so $180/hr. This is in Australia.
Do not load someone elses tune and expect it to work for you!
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Re: Idle is not running correctly Close loop or open loop

Postby shawnaj7731 » Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:00 pm

rickb794 wrote:I would never consider paying $2000 for a tune. Even $1000 is too much.

I'd suggest tuning it in SD mode without the MAF first (as long as you have an appropriate MAP sensor)(and a good working wide band O2).
Start a new project for this so you can easily go back to where you are.
This will give you some confidence and you will get more comfortable tuning.

Or maybe someone can help you with the MAF, I have not dipped my toes in that water.




I have the MSPNP2 it has a built MAP sensor and I have my Wide band hooked up to the MS. I also do not have the MAF hooked up i am running percent baro fuel right now not sure if it has any benefit over SD.
1990 Mustang GT, Vortech V3 Sci I/C 10.5 psi, 331 stroker, AFR 185 Heads, trickflow trk heat intake 3.73 gear,Aeromotive A1000 fuel pump, Aeromotive Fpr fuel rails , SD 60lb inj fuel pump 3G alt koni susp. ignition MSD & 6Al, NGK Powdex AFR meter, MSPNP2 , BBK headers with SLP LM Axle back.
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Re: Idle is not running correctly Close loop or open loop

Postby rickb794 » Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:19 pm

Percent baro is SD with a baro bonus
This is my brain on MegaSquirt!
Use only these manuals http://www.msextra.com/manuals/
Avoid the common pitfalls, Read this before start http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=101&t=65757
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Re: Idle is not running correctly Close loop or open loop

Postby Blown88GT » Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:10 am

Your tune doesn't seem to be that much different from mine, but I could be missing something.
At first look, nothing drastic stands out.
Cold idle start & warmup should have worked with the default tune provided with your MSPNP2.
My DIYPNP has the same core component, i.e. Microsquirt Module.

Have you looked for any vacuum leaks? Do you have a boost/vacuum gauge in the cockpit?

If that's not it, your closed-loop setting seem too aggressive.
I like to make all my curves linear, for smoother operation, or I'm just A.T.
You also might want try enabling Idle Advance Settings: RPMs, Adder, CL PID
Read the Tool Tips (all the little blue question marks in Tuner Studio).

Your Injector DT & BCV look OK. Did you use the online spreadsheet calculator?
I suspect you have the LU60's or SD equivalents.
DT=0.526
BCV=0.112

When you're ready for the MAF, I'm about the only one that uses it.
I suggest putting your key features in your signature (see mine).

BTW, it took me longer than you to get an acceptable tune. Just because they sold you a PNP doesn't mean it's Plug n' Play, more like Plug n' Pray.
1988 Mustang GT, 57k miles, Orig. Owner
ProCharger 600B I/C, 12psi, FRPP Hdrs, Flwmstr F2, 3G Alt, Mk8 Fan & DCC, 3.55's, Prog Sprng, Subfrms, UCA, LCA, FCA, Tokico 5-way, CSA 16x8, Bridgestone RE760 225/50R16, Crane HI-6, Kirban FPR, MS2, DIYPNPF60, LC2, C&L76mm blo-thru MAF, 30lb FRPP
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Re: Idle is not running correctly Close loop or open loop

Postby shawnaj7731 » Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:54 pm

Blown88GT wrote:Your tune doesn't seem to be that much different from mine, but I could be missing something.
At first look, nothing drastic stands out.
Cold idle start & warmup should have worked with the default tune provided with your MSPNP2.
My DIYPNP has the same core component, i.e. Microsquirt Module.

Have you looked for any vacuum leaks? Do you have a boost/vacuum gauge in the cockpit?

If that's not it, your closed-loop setting seem too aggressive.
I like to make all my curves linear, for smoother operation, or I'm just A.T.
You also might want try enabling Idle Advance Settings: RPMs, Adder, CL PID
Read the Tool Tips (all the little blue question marks in Tuner Studio).

Your Injector DT & BCV look OK. Did you use the online spreadsheet calculator?
I suspect you have the LU60's or SD equivalents.
DT=0.526
BCV=0.112

When you're ready for the MAF, I'm about the only one that uses it.
I suggest putting your key features in your signature (see mine).

BTW, it took me longer than you to get an acceptable tune. Just because they sold you a PNP doesn't mean it's Plug n' Play, more like Plug n' Pray.



I have the siemen deka 60lb injectors i believe it did come off the calculator. I have do not have much hooked up to vacuum at this time just my bypass valve, fpr, and the power brake booster. I have eliminated all heat and ac stuff. My vacuum stays pretty consistent around 16 -17 inhg once warmed up. I am going to try to idle advance settings, Another thing I did notice I had to reduce my afterstart enrichment substantially along with my warm up enrichment from the base tune. I will take a look at the close loop also ...and yes you are correct Plug N Pray is correct..
1990 Mustang GT, Vortech V3 Sci I/C 10.5 psi, 331 stroker, AFR 185 Heads, trickflow trk heat intake 3.73 gear,Aeromotive A1000 fuel pump, Aeromotive Fpr fuel rails , SD 60lb inj fuel pump 3G alt koni susp. ignition MSD & 6Al, NGK Powdex AFR meter, MSPNP2 , BBK headers with SLP LM Axle back.
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Re: Idle is not running correctly Close loop or open loop

Postby Blown88GT » Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:57 pm

shawnaj7731 wrote:I have the siemen deka 60lb injectors i believe it did come off the calculator. I have do not have much hooked up to vacuum at this time just my bypass valve, fpr, and the power brake booster. I have eliminated all heat and ac stuff. My vacuum stays pretty consistent around 16 -17 inhg once warmed up. I am going to try to idle advance settings, Another thing I did notice I had to reduce my afterstart enrichment substantially along with my warm up enrichment from the base tune. I will take a look at the close loop also ...and yes you are correct Plug N Pray is correct..

Could be a slight leak, it doesn't take much to mess things up. The hard lines crack & you'd never see it under the rubber connectors.
I get 18-20 when warmed up & everything, (including EGR) is still connected including bypass valve, fpr, and the power brake booster.
1988 Mustang GT, 57k miles, Orig. Owner
ProCharger 600B I/C, 12psi, FRPP Hdrs, Flwmstr F2, 3G Alt, Mk8 Fan & DCC, 3.55's, Prog Sprng, Subfrms, UCA, LCA, FCA, Tokico 5-way, CSA 16x8, Bridgestone RE760 225/50R16, Crane HI-6, Kirban FPR, MS2, DIYPNPF60, LC2, C&L76mm blo-thru MAF, 30lb FRPP
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Re: Idle is not running correctly Close loop or open loop

Postby shawnaj7731 » Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:47 pm

I have all new vacuum lines but i will double check them tomorrow to make sure nothing broke. I have the egr all delete with block off plate also.. Hmmm I will have to check the gasket on throttle body to make sure nothing there is bad i never replaced that.
1990 Mustang GT, Vortech V3 Sci I/C 10.5 psi, 331 stroker, AFR 185 Heads, trickflow trk heat intake 3.73 gear,Aeromotive A1000 fuel pump, Aeromotive Fpr fuel rails , SD 60lb inj fuel pump 3G alt koni susp. ignition MSD & 6Al, NGK Powdex AFR meter, MSPNP2 , BBK headers with SLP LM Axle back.
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Re: Idle is not running correctly Close loop or open loop

Postby shawnaj7731 » Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:55 pm

Here is a Pic of the motor maybe you see something i do not see..
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20171027_172052.jpg
motor
20171027_172052.jpg (442.73 KiB) Viewed 255 times
1990 Mustang GT, Vortech V3 Sci I/C 10.5 psi, 331 stroker, AFR 185 Heads, trickflow trk heat intake 3.73 gear,Aeromotive A1000 fuel pump, Aeromotive Fpr fuel rails , SD 60lb inj fuel pump 3G alt koni susp. ignition MSD & 6Al, NGK Powdex AFR meter, MSPNP2 , BBK headers with SLP LM Axle back.
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Re: Idle is not running correctly Close loop or open loop

Postby Blown88GT » Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:28 pm

1. I don't see a vacuum line on the FPR. My FPR is a Kirban.
2. What's the black cylinder thing with the vacuum line on the shock tower? Is that the BOV?
3. Can't see the I/C or the BOV (Bypass). Can't see mine, either. MAF is behind battery inside fender well. I/C is in front of A/C condenser. BOV is on inlet to I/C.
4. No A/C, oh well, too bad.
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IMG_0521a.JPG (424.98 KiB) Viewed 253 times
1988 Mustang GT, 57k miles, Orig. Owner
ProCharger 600B I/C, 12psi, FRPP Hdrs, Flwmstr F2, 3G Alt, Mk8 Fan & DCC, 3.55's, Prog Sprng, Subfrms, UCA, LCA, FCA, Tokico 5-way, CSA 16x8, Bridgestone RE760 225/50R16, Crane HI-6, Kirban FPR, MS2, DIYPNPF60, LC2, C&L76mm blo-thru MAF, 30lb FRPP
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Re: Idle is not running correctly Close loop or open loop

Postby shawnaj7731 » Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:40 pm

Blown88GT wrote:1. I don't see a vacuum line on the FPR. My FPR is a Kirban.
2. What's the black cylinder thing with the vacuum line on the shock tower? Is that the BOV?
3. Can't see the I/C or the BOV (Bypass). Can't see mine, either. MAF is behind battery inside fender well. I/C is in front of A/C condenser. BOV is on inlet to I/C.
4. No A/C, oh well, too bad.



The vacuum line is zipped tied to the fuel line going to the FPR the black cylinder is the Bypass valve. yea no ac but its really going to more of a track car. I/C is front mount no ac condenser. One thing I noticed is my AIT is mounted right below the throttle body really close to the valve covers/ header area. I am wondering if i should relocate that.
1990 Mustang GT, Vortech V3 Sci I/C 10.5 psi, 331 stroker, AFR 185 Heads, trickflow trk heat intake 3.73 gear,Aeromotive A1000 fuel pump, Aeromotive Fpr fuel rails , SD 60lb inj fuel pump 3G alt koni susp. ignition MSD & 6Al, NGK Powdex AFR meter, MSPNP2 , BBK headers with SLP LM Axle back.
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Re: Idle is not running correctly Close loop or open loop

Postby Blown88GT » Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:02 pm

The IAT sensor is the thermistor inside the black tip. It only measures the air around it.
I have 2, the original location being in the upper intake, the current location you can see in the section of pipe behind the battery. I extended the current harness, so have both connected (not at the same time). Didn't notice any difference. I see your IAT, it's OK there. You could rotate the tubing (pipe) 90 deg., if the harness reaches.
BTW, it's exactly the same thermistor used in the CTS. It's inside the brass tip, so the heat does transfer. Thermistors are fast reacting compared to other temp devices, i.e. RTD's, just not as accurate, few degrees instead of 1 degree.
Image

You don't see too many Vortech's with air-to-air intercoolers. That's the only reason I bought the Procharger (1st batch of 6 they ever made). Mounting the blower on the driver's side made the plumbing easier (even if they screwed up the design). Bonus is the battery tray mounts on the passenger side, same as the 4-cylinder cars. Captive nuts are already there, tray needed trimming by 1/2" or so to fit. Windshield washer has to go because air intake comes through there. 60's Mustangs had a washer bag & pump, you can see it to the right of the blower.
1988 Mustang GT, 57k miles, Orig. Owner
ProCharger 600B I/C, 12psi, FRPP Hdrs, Flwmstr F2, 3G Alt, Mk8 Fan & DCC, 3.55's, Prog Sprng, Subfrms, UCA, LCA, FCA, Tokico 5-way, CSA 16x8, Bridgestone RE760 225/50R16, Crane HI-6, Kirban FPR, MS2, DIYPNPF60, LC2, C&L76mm blo-thru MAF, 30lb FRPP
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Re: Idle is not running correctly Close loop or open loop

Postby shawnaj7731 » Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:31 pm

yeah my system was kinda pieced together with a procharger air to air intercooler with cxracing piping. If I had to do it over I would of went a different route with the piping but everything was dam near close with the bends but there is a good amount of bends in the system itself. I may of even went with a turbo setup if the car didnt have a blower that came with it prior. I did clock the AIT sensor but havent started the car yet i am going to check everything over for a leak. Someone told me to check my MAT/CLT correction?
1990 Mustang GT, Vortech V3 Sci I/C 10.5 psi, 331 stroker, AFR 185 Heads, trickflow trk heat intake 3.73 gear,Aeromotive A1000 fuel pump, Aeromotive Fpr fuel rails , SD 60lb inj fuel pump 3G alt koni susp. ignition MSD & 6Al, NGK Powdex AFR meter, MSPNP2 , BBK headers with SLP LM Axle back.
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Re: Idle is not running correctly Close loop or open loop

Postby Tassuperkart » Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:47 pm

Firstly, is this engine fitted with an external CDI ignition?
Reason is the Dwell settings are all overt the place. Cranking dwell set to 8Ms and running dwell is set to 50% duty cycle when running. The 50% agrees with a CDI fitted.

On initial startup, the IAC is pegged at 100% yet the engine cycles up and down in rpm. I would have thought the Ford iac would have more authority there.
The ignition advance is changing a bit there but IMHO not really enough to cause so much drama. There is a case to flatten the ignition in the idle running area and provide a stable ignition setting to start with tho.

looking at AFSTE, there are a lot of engine cycles of after start fuel taken into account there. Do you need that much time accounted for?

Have you locked the ignition and check for base timing with a timing light?
Im wondering if the timing figures in TS are not agreeing with whats actually showing on the pulley.

E
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