ms2 1jz lean misfire
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- MS/Extra Newbie
- Posts: 18
- Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2009 6:40 pm
ms2 1jz lean misfire
Hello!
I'm a tuner newbie, was at a tuner some months ago to tune my car, or give it a touch up after upgrading to a faster spooling turbo,
and fixing exhaust leaks etc.
We had issues with it stalling and running lean on dyno, didn't respond to increase in VE.
Taught the injectors were bad, sent them in for testing with ok result, changed fuelpump with no difference,
increased the size of fuel lines didn't change anything, new filters, tested my 1.8t vag cop on a friends car with no difference,
new fuel pressure regulator also no difference, new battery, new grounds, measured volt and ampere to pump, connected fuel pressure meter and it measures alright.
Car spec:
1jz-gte, e85
walbro gst 450 pump
an6 feed, an 5 ish return.
1600 cc injectors RC engineering Peak n hold.
Megasquirt 2 v3
1.8t vag cop.
Running without boost pipe connected to turbo (to not exceed 100 kpa).
So after the initial test at my tuner I've been trying to fix things and trying the car in a short slope I have where I live. And the pull I do is in first gear with handbrake pulled to create load.
The car starts to run lean & stalls when reaching around 4000-4200 rpm. It also stalls and sound like launch control if I free rev the engine, like step on the pedal. and it gets stuck at around the same rpm, sounding like it builds boost. And the only way to get out of it is to take the load off or to get of the throttle.
Am i supposed to be able to free rev the engine like that when EGO is not enabled, or when AE is not tuned?
I'm running a tune from last year when the car was tuned for a bigger turob, but with boost pipes disconnected.
Anyway later today I took the car for a longer drive up a longer hill. A 2nd gear pull and here the car started to run rich instead.
When i look at the long pull it looks like pw is stable and its going rich, I richened the VE table after the shorter pulls. After this pull I went back to do another pull in the shorter slope but here it stalled after changing. Does this have something to do with AE or EGO begin disabled?
Another thing I've tried is to mount the fuelpump connected to the fuelrail 60cm from engine without a filter. The free revs recorded looks so much richer in mixture.
Just don't understand, Changed filters, Upgraded size of fuellines, new fuel pressure regulator tried a different pump, opening the fueltank for more ventilation.
Upgrades since last season was turbo + fixing exhaust leaks.
Best regards
I'm a tuner newbie, was at a tuner some months ago to tune my car, or give it a touch up after upgrading to a faster spooling turbo,
and fixing exhaust leaks etc.
We had issues with it stalling and running lean on dyno, didn't respond to increase in VE.
Taught the injectors were bad, sent them in for testing with ok result, changed fuelpump with no difference,
increased the size of fuel lines didn't change anything, new filters, tested my 1.8t vag cop on a friends car with no difference,
new fuel pressure regulator also no difference, new battery, new grounds, measured volt and ampere to pump, connected fuel pressure meter and it measures alright.
Car spec:
1jz-gte, e85
walbro gst 450 pump
an6 feed, an 5 ish return.
1600 cc injectors RC engineering Peak n hold.
Megasquirt 2 v3
1.8t vag cop.
Running without boost pipe connected to turbo (to not exceed 100 kpa).
So after the initial test at my tuner I've been trying to fix things and trying the car in a short slope I have where I live. And the pull I do is in first gear with handbrake pulled to create load.
The car starts to run lean & stalls when reaching around 4000-4200 rpm. It also stalls and sound like launch control if I free rev the engine, like step on the pedal. and it gets stuck at around the same rpm, sounding like it builds boost. And the only way to get out of it is to take the load off or to get of the throttle.
Am i supposed to be able to free rev the engine like that when EGO is not enabled, or when AE is not tuned?
I'm running a tune from last year when the car was tuned for a bigger turob, but with boost pipes disconnected.
Anyway later today I took the car for a longer drive up a longer hill. A 2nd gear pull and here the car started to run rich instead.
When i look at the long pull it looks like pw is stable and its going rich, I richened the VE table after the shorter pulls. After this pull I went back to do another pull in the shorter slope but here it stalled after changing. Does this have something to do with AE or EGO begin disabled?
Another thing I've tried is to mount the fuelpump connected to the fuelrail 60cm from engine without a filter. The free revs recorded looks so much richer in mixture.
Just don't understand, Changed filters, Upgraded size of fuellines, new fuel pressure regulator tried a different pump, opening the fueltank for more ventilation.
Upgrades since last season was turbo + fixing exhaust leaks.
Best regards
- Attachments
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- 2017-11-25_20.44.39_no_overrun.msl
- Shorter pull in hill
- (504.48 KiB) Downloaded 23 times
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- 2017-11-25_19.58.501.msl
- longer pull 2nd gear
- (576.31 KiB) Downloaded 24 times
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- 1djz.msq
- Tune
- (108.42 KiB) Downloaded 24 times
Re: ms2 1jz lean misfire
It does looks strange. Given your fuel pump and injectors, it should not be out of fuel.
Have you done a fuel volume test?
Take the fuel hose between fuel regulator and tank off, put it in a gallon jug, run the pump for 30 seconds and take note of how may litre you have. Multiply what you have by 120 and you'll get your litre per hour.
Have you done a fuel volume test?
Take the fuel hose between fuel regulator and tank off, put it in a gallon jug, run the pump for 30 seconds and take note of how may litre you have. Multiply what you have by 120 and you'll get your litre per hour.
1985 Dodge Omni GLH Turbo MicroSquirted 367whp http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=67324
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- MS/Extra Newbie
- Posts: 18
- Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2009 6:40 pm
Re: ms2 1jz lean misfire
2.75l in 30s = 330l /h at 43,5 psitryingbe wrote:It does looks strange. Given your fuel pump and injectors, it should not be out of fuel.
Have you done a fuel volume test?
Take the fuel hose between fuel regulator and tank off, put it in a gallon jug, run the pump for 30 seconds and take note of how may litre you have. Multiply what you have by 120 and you'll get your litre per hour.
Re: ms2 1jz lean misfire
Where are the injectors getting power? Full 12v?
Any sync loss?
Any sync loss?
Correctly identify your MS ecu here
Read the Do's and Don'ts to avoid the common pitfalls before starting your install or asking for help
Use only these manuals other manuals may cause brain damage or worse.
Read the Do's and Don'ts to avoid the common pitfalls before starting your install or asking for help
Use only these manuals other manuals may cause brain damage or worse.
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- MS/Extra Newbie
- Posts: 18
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Re: ms2 1jz lean misfire
I have the flyback circuit, Injectors are getting full 12v from fuse and then wired back to box.
Injectors are PnH.
No sync losses in any logs.
Injectors are PnH.
No sync losses in any logs.
Re: ms2 1jz lean misfire
Do you have Peak & Hold drivers for the injectors or are you using PWM current control?
Injector power should come from the fuel pump relay or an aux relay triggered by the fuel pump relay that gets power directly from the battery (no vehicle harness used).
Injector power should come from the fuel pump relay or an aux relay triggered by the fuel pump relay that gets power directly from the battery (no vehicle harness used).
Correctly identify your MS ecu here
Read the Do's and Don'ts to avoid the common pitfalls before starting your install or asking for help
Use only these manuals other manuals may cause brain damage or worse.
Read the Do's and Don'ts to avoid the common pitfalls before starting your install or asking for help
Use only these manuals other manuals may cause brain damage or worse.
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- MS/Extra Newbie
- Posts: 18
- Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2009 6:40 pm
Re: ms2 1jz lean misfire
Im using PWM for current control, it has been working good last year.
Injector power is through FP relay and from battery to relay.
Noticed something. What is the timing err % in the log for? Added a screenshot of log
Injector power is through FP relay and from battery to relay.
Noticed something. What is the timing err % in the log for? Added a screenshot of log
- Attachments
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- Screenshot of log
- Screen Shot 2017-11-27 at 23.06.26.png (331.33 KiB) Viewed 672 times
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- MS/Extra Newbie
- Posts: 18
- Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2009 6:40 pm
Re: ms2 1jz lean misfire
Just a question first, Am I testing the wrong way, I'm driving in a slope on first gear with handbrake pulled to create load, and then I try to be careful not to increase throttle too much.
Car stalls or hesitates at around 4000 rpm, always. Shows super lean 19,9.
I don't know if its the box, if its my triggers, But I cant see any reported sync loss. Only timing err where the hesitation occurs. Should I try log the sync instead when driving?
Havn't tried inspecting my crank sensor wiring or other parts of triggers since theres no sync losses reported in my datalogs (when normal logging).
I have access to oscilloscopes and other equipments so if theres anything you want me to scope to aid or anything just ask I'm running out of ideas.
Attached a picture of current going to my injectors. theres some ripples, are these normal, 100mv = 1a.
Car stalls or hesitates at around 4000 rpm, always. Shows super lean 19,9.
I don't know if its the box, if its my triggers, But I cant see any reported sync loss. Only timing err where the hesitation occurs. Should I try log the sync instead when driving?
Havn't tried inspecting my crank sensor wiring or other parts of triggers since theres no sync losses reported in my datalogs (when normal logging).
I have access to oscilloscopes and other equipments so if theres anything you want me to scope to aid or anything just ask I'm running out of ideas.
Attached a picture of current going to my injectors. theres some ripples, are these normal, 100mv = 1a.
Re: ms2 1jz lean misfire
Lean indication can be rich misfires..... (or ignition misfires)
The O2 does not measure fuel it measures the difference between O2 levels in the exhaust and outside air.
Any misfires will increase O2 level in the exhaust which is then converted to AFR (lean).
Perhaps your plug gaps are too big for the boost level or you have some weakness in the ignition secondary.
Don't some of the VAG COP coils require a driver to properly trigger?
5.3.1.3 Logic spark outputs - FET driver method.
The O2 does not measure fuel it measures the difference between O2 levels in the exhaust and outside air.
Any misfires will increase O2 level in the exhaust which is then converted to AFR (lean).
Perhaps your plug gaps are too big for the boost level or you have some weakness in the ignition secondary.
Don't some of the VAG COP coils require a driver to properly trigger?
5.3.1.3 Logic spark outputs - FET driver method.
Correctly identify your MS ecu here
Read the Do's and Don'ts to avoid the common pitfalls before starting your install or asking for help
Use only these manuals other manuals may cause brain damage or worse.
Read the Do's and Don'ts to avoid the common pitfalls before starting your install or asking for help
Use only these manuals other manuals may cause brain damage or worse.
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- MS/Extra Newbie
- Posts: 18
- Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2009 6:40 pm
Re: ms2 1jz lean misfire
Ok, but its strange it would go from 14 to 19 like that if it would be rich or maybe not?
Yes VAG cops with fet is how its running today, worked great last year, COP's where tested on my friends supra with no issues.
I've changed to new plugs and also gapped them down. No difference.
And theoretically if my lambda would be the problem it should still run fine with the tune since theres no EGO activated?
I've been thinking if it can be something timing related..?
Added a log from monday, afr really jumps straight up like a misfire.
Yes VAG cops with fet is how its running today, worked great last year, COP's where tested on my friends supra with no issues.
I've changed to new plugs and also gapped them down. No difference.
And theoretically if my lambda would be the problem it should still run fine with the tune since theres no EGO activated?
I've been thinking if it can be something timing related..?
Added a log from monday, afr really jumps straight up like a misfire.
- Attachments
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- 2017-11-27_21.16.56.msl
- log monday
- (433.72 KiB) Downloaded 18 times
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- MS/Extra Newbie
- Posts: 18
- Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2009 6:40 pm
Re: ms2 1jz lean misfire
Tried some more pulls today.
The misfire is always coming at 4000 rpm,
Tried increasing advance by 5deg with no difference, Then Lowered VE by 10 in affected cells no difference,
Lower dwell settings, Tried logging sync, can't see anything different.
Attached log and pic of region
The misfire is always coming at 4000 rpm,
Tried increasing advance by 5deg with no difference, Then Lowered VE by 10 in affected cells no difference,
Lower dwell settings, Tried logging sync, can't see anything different.
Attached log and pic of region
- Attachments
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- 2017-11-29_18.41.57_lean.msl
- log
- (210.23 KiB) Downloaded 22 times
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- pic
- Screen Shot 2017-11-29 at 18.56.14.png (551.5 KiB) Viewed 642 times
Re: ms2 1jz lean misfire
Did you ever find any improvement for this condition? Or for that matter, did you ever find any good information about what "Timing err" really is or represents?
--'98 Dodge Neon ACR Turbo - MS3 beta test car - Sold
--'97 BMW 540i/6spd - Single Front/Top Mount Turbo 550+ HP - MS3+MS3X V3.0 - Sold but ripping in Vegas
--'97 BMW 328i 5.3 L33/TH400 Swapped drift car - MS3+MS3X V3.0 Full Sequential - Turbos And Radiator In the Trunk 9.6@144 on a 1.55 60ft
--'97 BMW 540i/6spd - Single Front/Top Mount Turbo 550+ HP - MS3+MS3X V3.0 - Sold but ripping in Vegas
--'97 BMW 328i 5.3 L33/TH400 Swapped drift car - MS3+MS3X V3.0 Full Sequential - Turbos And Radiator In the Trunk 9.6@144 on a 1.55 60ft
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- Helpful MS/Extra'er
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Re: ms2 1jz lean misfire
JUst guessing, but the error tells you the wheel doesn't have enough teeth.
My 45 deg seperation got plus and minus 12.7 error.
The prediction wants less than 25.4 degrees between signals.
Hope this helps.
Sam
My 45 deg seperation got plus and minus 12.7 error.
The prediction wants less than 25.4 degrees between signals.
Hope this helps.
Sam
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Re: ms2 1jz lean misfire
Timing error is a percentage difference between the expected time between teeth and the measured time. It's sampled at a rate that is too slow to make it a really useful number, but it does tend to increase when the engine is running roughly.
I see this one is using PWM current limiting on the injectors. This can be very sensitive to grounding, and it's also possible that a 20% current limit may cause the injectors to start "creeping back shut" if it is set too low.
I see this one is using PWM current limiting on the injectors. This can be very sensitive to grounding, and it's also possible that a 20% current limit may cause the injectors to start "creeping back shut" if it is set too low.
Matt Cramer -1966 Dodge Dart slant six running on MS3X
Re: ms2 1jz lean misfire
OP may have already fixed the issue, either way, I am curious to hear his fix.
I can almost bet I know what the issue is/was, but no one will believe me until they see it with their own eyes.
I completed a big single turbo upgrade on my brothers 1jz car a while back and ended up with a very very similar issue. Started tuning the car and it would just hit a brick wall, going lean, almost like there was a massive drop off in the VE table when coming into boost.
The fix was to reinstall the fuel pressure pulse damper that I removed when I upgraded to the top feed rail, fpr, -6an lines etc... Once the stock pressure damper was reinstalled the issue completely disappeared.
For reference heres a brief spec list of things that matter.
1jz non vvti
aem v2 ems
id1000s
driftmotion top feed fuel rail
aeromotive fpr
aem 340lph
stock fuel lines to the firewall, -6an to the motor
Pump gas
I can almost bet I know what the issue is/was, but no one will believe me until they see it with their own eyes.
I completed a big single turbo upgrade on my brothers 1jz car a while back and ended up with a very very similar issue. Started tuning the car and it would just hit a brick wall, going lean, almost like there was a massive drop off in the VE table when coming into boost.
The fix was to reinstall the fuel pressure pulse damper that I removed when I upgraded to the top feed rail, fpr, -6an lines etc... Once the stock pressure damper was reinstalled the issue completely disappeared.
For reference heres a brief spec list of things that matter.
1jz non vvti
aem v2 ems
id1000s
driftmotion top feed fuel rail
aeromotive fpr
aem 340lph
stock fuel lines to the firewall, -6an to the motor
Pump gas
08 Ducati Hypermotard 1100S (1100cc oil cooled 90* Vtwin) + Microsquirt v3, sequential ignition & injection + td04h 15g