Does the MS control coil negative ??

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summerlint51
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Does the MS control coil negative ??

Post by summerlint51 »

Hello, I have a MS2, that po installed on 1996 VW Rialta camper, 2.5L 5 Cylinder Straight prior to my purchase. My question is does the MS control the coil by placing a ground to the negative terminal? This engine has a 6 blade Hall Effect sensor that is working correctly, using the original schematics, the negative signal runs to the Older ECU which then outputs a signal to the ignition control module finally appearing as a grd to the coil itself. The reference 5vdc is present on the connector and the signal does fall to zero when the hall sensor blade passes. This vehicle had been running albeit like crap, missing, strong fuel odor, sometimes automatically slips into 3rd gear or limp in mode. Being a new user is there a particular file that i should download to set everything back to original? I did try using the tuner studio software but that wasn't a help regardless of which file I used, I started and saved the first file as soon as it started and running however I don't know it the po had made changes prior and giving me this grief. If someone has any help in getting this vehicle working I would appreciate it. BTW I was trying to troubleshoot the timing advance which wouldn't do anything when this problem starte. So is it car and not a ms issue or not? Just trying to figure it out, I have driven this vehicle 61 miles since June not trusting it and now it won't even start. Thank you for your time. Oscar, tired retired and confused.
hybrid
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Re: Does the MS control coil negative ??

Post by hybrid »

The MS can fire a coil directly if it has had the ignition transistor installed.
If you can take the lid off and get some photos of the board and modifications we might be able to tell what has been done to it.

If you want to go back to "factory" settings, you can just upload new firmware to the MS, and that will wipe the tune and settings so you can start from scratch.
Do not load someone elses tune and expect it to work for you!
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Paul_VR6
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Re: Does the MS control coil negative ??

Post by Paul_VR6 »

Host and link the current msq for us to look at as well. Just key on and do a file>save as

The eurovan/rialta coil is a known failure point and even has been known to damage the stock ecu when it goes bad.
-Paul
1992 Corrado SLC 3.6 VR6 11.38@120 - MS3 Pro Ultimate - Microsquirt I/O - Can EGT - Racepak IQ3s
kptuned.com - Megasquirting the World! Megasquirt Sales, Service, Tuning and More!
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summerlint51
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Re: Does the MS control coil negative ??

Post by summerlint51 »

Does this help, prior to send off to repair of C16 and others hybrid
New coil coming in tomorrow. however my tests are at the input to the ignition control module connector, three wire neg, battery voltage and supposedly ground, but the coil wont fire. Thanks Oscar, I will try and send an msq if i can figure it out.
Attachments
Hope this helps Hybrid
Hope this helps Hybrid
IMG_20171106_134030884 (1).jpg (861.13 KiB) Viewed 1397 times
hybrid
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Re: Does the MS control coil negative ??

Post by hybrid »

There does seem to be a mod to LED14, which would normally be your SparkA output for a single coil.
However, I don't see an ignition transistor (BIP373 or VB921) in there anywhere.

It's possible they were using a logic level coil that only needed a 5V signal to trigger it.
Do not load someone elses tune and expect it to work for you!
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rickb794
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Re: Does the MS control coil negative ??

Post by rickb794 »

Yes. What kind of coil?
Correctly identify your MS ecu here
Read the Do's and Don'ts to avoid the common pitfalls before starting your install or asking for help
Use only these manuals other manuals may cause brain damage or worse.
summerlint51
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Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:17 pm

Re: Does the MS control coil negative ??

Post by summerlint51 »

I don't know the number of the coil,but it looked stock. Not HEI or anything.
summerlint51
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Re: Does the MS control coil negative ??

Post by summerlint51 »

It just doesn't make sense to me. Megasquirt, it also has an LC1 O2 plugged in. This is a straight 5 cylinder, 2.5l, vw/audi engiine 96 vintage. I don't see why anyone would want to do any super-tune on an RV is beyond me. Rialta is a small class C, and stock it is supposed to get over 18 mpg. With the LC1 only monitoring the AFR, when the mega does that and allows someone to change parameters. Oh well hopefully I will get some help with it. It won't start of course so I am still in a quandary. I ran tests on my old coil and cant get any reading from sec to primary, primary checked good. I ordered a cheap one from herko to see if it would do something. Hopefully tomorrow or this weekend.
Paul_VR6
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Re: Does the MS control coil negative ??

Post by Paul_VR6 »

Looks like I built this, I have done a few of them over the years for people. The coil is an amplified unit similar to the late digifant and aba coil.

The ecus on the 95/96 Rialtas die (usually to a blown coil) and the ecus are nearly completely non available. When they do pop up they are 1500-2k.
-Paul
1992 Corrado SLC 3.6 VR6 11.38@120 - MS3 Pro Ultimate - Microsquirt I/O - Can EGT - Racepak IQ3s
kptuned.com - Megasquirting the World! Megasquirt Sales, Service, Tuning and More!
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summerlint51
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Re: Does the MS control coil negative ??

Post by summerlint51 »

Here is an the msq file.I can't open it so hopefully someone can read it.
Attachments
Current Tune 2018-02-03_16.56.13.msq
(89.13 KiB) Downloaded 108 times
BlackBird_SR71
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Re: Does the MS control coil negative ??

Post by BlackBird_SR71 »

Your MSQ file looks to be pretty strange. I opened it using TS 3.0.28 and Req Fuel calculation showed a 350 CC motor with 378CC injectors? Somehow I don't think that correct, but it may just be a Configuration read error from the downloaded file. What is proper engine size and injector size?

Also fuel algorithm shows Percent Baro, which is not usual . Should be Speed Density. Tps Dot Threshold at 750? Should be around 20. MapDot Threshold at 100? Should be around 40

Project properties show Old firmware. 3.24.

Suggestions.

1: Update firmware to 3.4.2.

2: Toss that Tune and start fresh with 3.4.2 Default tune.
rickb794
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Re: Does the MS control coil negative ??

Post by rickb794 »

A three wire coil is a logic level coil and may not need a BIP373.
You need to correctly identify the coil and mod the MS (per the Extra manual) to provide the correct signal for it to opperate.
Correctly identify your MS ecu here
Read the Do's and Don'ts to avoid the common pitfalls before starting your install or asking for help
Use only these manuals other manuals may cause brain damage or worse.
summerlint51
MS/Extra Newbie
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:17 pm

Re: Does the MS control coil negative ??

Post by summerlint51 »

Ok I have just updated laptop tuner studio to latest and will begin the firmware update. I will then set the tps baro etc. I have the 2.5liter vw acu motor 2500 cc but can't even see the injectors. 1995 only 57k. Ssorry for taking everyone's time, old retiree trying to grasp. Thanks so much. Oscar
BlackBird_SR71
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Re: Does the MS control coil negative ??

Post by BlackBird_SR71 »

Can you send us a picture of the coil.

EdIt: A 3 terminal coil can be a Logic or a dumb coil. VW/Audi did that with the later 1.8T engine. The 3 wire COP were dumb coils. +12v, Trigger from external ignitor and an extra main ground to Valve cover.

The 4 wires Logic COP didn't start being used till 2000 model year.
Last edited by BlackBird_SR71 on Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
jsmcortina
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Re: Does the MS control coil negative ??

Post by jsmcortina »

See the note at the top of this page:
http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/html/MS2 ... .4-88.html

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
New users, please read the "Forum Help Page".
BlackBird_SR71
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Re: Does the MS control coil negative ??

Post by BlackBird_SR71 »

Here's a better picture of the MB that I reduced in size with Paint. You can see the complete MB now.

Notice what appears to be a blown Cap circled in Red???
MS2 MB blown Cap.jpg
MS2 MB blown Cap.jpg (545.17 KiB) Viewed 1308 times
BlackBird_SR71
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Re: Does the MS control coil negative ??

Post by BlackBird_SR71 »

Oscar, is this what your coil looks like?
VW Coil.jpg
VW Coil.jpg (146.58 KiB) Viewed 1307 times
Paul_VR6
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Re: Does the MS control coil negative ??

Post by Paul_VR6 »

That is what the coil should look like. Can you look at the bottom of the case and see if there is a serial number? Will start with K&P and a year then a 3 digit number. From that I can tell what this was built for.
-Paul
1992 Corrado SLC 3.6 VR6 11.38@120 - MS3 Pro Ultimate - Microsquirt I/O - Can EGT - Racepak IQ3s
kptuned.com - Megasquirting the World! Megasquirt Sales, Service, Tuning and More!
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rickb794
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Re: Does the MS control coil negative ??

Post by rickb794 »

The blown cap is part of the power filtering section.
The MS will run without it but it is part of the power filtering/conditioning section and should be replaced.
https://www.diyautotune.com/product/cap ... 9-1420-nd/
Be certain to observe polarity when installing the cap(s).

Avoid using bad batteries and battery chargers when cranking.
Use a good battery Fully charged overnight with a battery tender.
Use jumper cables to a running car to keep battery from being depleted.
Remove spark plugs and disable coil(s) and injectors for extended cranking when diagnosing input triggering.

Back to the Capacitor.
They self sacrifice when trying to dump large AC voltages (noise) caused by battery chargers or bad alternators.
Also a 3A or smaller fuse to bring power into the MS will help to protect the MS from severe damage (burned traces on the power section).
I think you can cut that fuse size in half if you are not using the idle stepper driver.
Correctly identify your MS ecu here
Read the Do's and Don'ts to avoid the common pitfalls before starting your install or asking for help
Use only these manuals other manuals may cause brain damage or worse.
summerlint51
MS/Extra Newbie
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:17 pm

Re: Does the MS control coil negative ??

Post by summerlint51 »

[attachment=0]2.5liter igniter and coil when originally bought. First let me apologize to those wishing to help me, i was out a few days went to the Cape to watch the Falcon Heavy Launch. Slept in walmart parking lot in my Honda CRV because of the complete frustration of not being able to drive the rv. Thank you,
Now I am posting a pic of the igniter coil setup originally installed when I bought this thing. The igniter has a four pin connector, red +, black -, the blue/white (I know the wire is supposed to be green black but that is a splice from the original wires, that wire is supposed to be to the ms for neg signal control, and brown wire going to neg side of coil. the coil has the red also it is split from the redwire going to the igniter. All works except I do not have any change on the blue white trigger from the ms. Igniter Synposis, red black are the power wires, blue'white wire mssquirt control. and the brown wires output is the neg control to the coil itself. With the coil having only two inputs, the brown wire neg and red wire sw on crank power. I have purchased a new coil with igniter attached making this a three wire. Those are the physical parts which I do not believe is the problem. I think it is something in the MSSquirt itself, I have checked the output of the Hall Effect sensor within the dizzy, neg, 5vdc ref voltage, and the signal itself which of course falls to zero when i turn the dizzy so the hall effect finds the slots. All good. That signal wire is supposed to go to the mssquirt and then is outputed I think at the same
0 or 5vdc to the igniter. Thats where the problem is.
While doing the original tune is when these things started. I have tried to reload basic program but now the three red lights on the front of the mssquirt not on brightly. but quickly flickering? So as previously recommended i have updated the tuner studio program in my laptop as well as the latest firmware. So I am still at a loss. Thank you for takiing the long time to read my thoughts, please help Oscar
Attachments
2.5liter igniter and coil when originally bought.jpg
2.5liter igniter and coil when originally bought.jpg (593.04 KiB) Viewed 1241 times
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