SPYDER SILVERSTONE KITCAR 3SGE COP

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SPYDER SILVERSTONE KITCAR 3SGE COP

Postby spyder » Wed Nov 24, 2010 11:18 am

Here is my 1987 Spyder Silverstone powered by a REV3 3SGE engine in RWD format. V3 MS1 Extracode running ignition only. Four spark outputs, sequential
COP using Kawasaki ZX6 coils. Triggered using the 24 tooth wheel in the dizzie with one tooth removed. Techedge wideband recently fitted.
Running at present on Solex Mikuni 40's with 36mm chokes. 167 bhp on the rollers. I am considering throttle bodies but I'm mindful of the relative fragility of the T50 gearbox.
Transplanting the 3SGE was problematic but the MS install (4 years ago) was relatively straightforward.
I've had a few niggles recently following replacement of the previously overheated 3SGE. Cold starting became poor for no apparent reason. I put a noise filter on the ECU supply and filters on all noise sources. Then I ran a dedicated supply direct from the battery. This seems to have sorted it. I think the voltage drop during cranking may be greater on the new engine.
The car itself is chassis #12 of 28. Very rare and very special.
Big thankyou to ExtraEFI.
Geoff.

Image20130512_1943 by Geoff Lee, on Flickr
Last edited by spyder on Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SPYDER SILVERSTONE KITCAR 3SGE COP

Postby t11 » Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:32 pm

Hi Geoff very interested in your project and that you have used the toyota 3sge, Iam using the same engine but rear engined in a Gilbern the ms 1 v3 has been modded to run a ford edis coil pack direct and also run the radiator fan and drive the rev counter......as yoou use the same engine do you have any base settings I could use.......thanks Gordon
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Re: SPYDER SILVERSTONE KITCAR 3SGE COP

Postby spyder » Tue Jan 18, 2011 3:56 pm

Hi Gordon.I doubt if much of my config will be anything like yours. I have modified the standard dizzy by filing away one tooth to give a 24-1 missing tooth type setup. I'm not using the VE table as I am running carbs.
The only thing I can offer is my ignition table. Even that will only be useful if you are running MAP, not Alpha-N.
I have tweaked it a fair bit but it should be OK for an injection setup as a starting point.
The 3SGE is a great engine. I've got a couple of fuel rails with injectors, throttle body with TPS and idle valve, all to suit Rev3, if you want them. I've no use for them.
Let me know.
Geoff.
Image
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Re: SPYDER SILVERSTONE KITCAR 3SGE COP

Postby spyder » Mon Mar 23, 2015 4:08 am

Well the last year has seen a flurry of activity. Firstly I made a new exhaust manifold with 45mm primaries and a proper merge collector. Then came a six speed gearbox from a Lexus IS200. Not a straightforward job but not too difficult either. In this guise the car was tested at 176hp. Then came the GSXR1000 throttle bodies, respaced, on a custom manifold of my own making. Fitment was relatively straightforward, including a front mounted swirl pot fed by the existing LP pump.
I'm using the standard injectors mounted in the head.
It started virtually straight-away using the software generated VE map. A few tuning sessions using VEAL got the map even closer but revealed a low tickover pulse width of 1.7ms.
This made it difficult to accurately tune so I have upgraded to the latest HR11d high resolution code which has solved the problem.
The software upgrade was suggested by Brian Holzbach at EFI Analytics.
Back on the rollers power was up from 176hp on carbs to 194hp on the throttle bodies. The extra oomph builds from 3000 revs upwards with an extra 16-18 lb.ft. across the midrange. Result!
I've also fitted a revised cam cover and a nice ally filler cap.
Image010 by Geoff Lee, on Flickr

Imageitb by Geoff Lee, on Flickr
Last edited by spyder on Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SPYDER SILVERSTONE KITCAR 3SGE COP

Postby lifeandffl » Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:52 am

Hi Spyder, I'm not sure if you're still around much but I wanted to ask you about the 3SGE. Did you make any changes to run the 3SGE upright? I'm finishing up my 3SGE build (high comp, big cams, blacktop 20V ITBs) and it's getting implanted into an AE86 and was curious about any side effects of mounting the tilted motor upright. I know there may be some lower oil drainage (doesn't seem like a hug deal) but I was more concerned with the oil pickup. Any insight you might be able to offer would be appreciated.

-Joey
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Re: SPYDER SILVERSTONE KITCAR 3SGE COP

Postby spyder » Sat Dec 31, 2016 4:04 am

Hi Joey. I had to modify the sump a little as it sits very low in my car. It only amounted to cutting off the lowest bit and re-plating flat.
I left the pickup standard.
I initially had slight oil starvation on prolonged right hand bends but I now overfill it a bit and no longer have any problems.
Having said that my engine wouldn't cost much to replace, unlike yours. Mine is only used on the road too.
In your position I would be tempted to fit an Accusump or similar.
What gearbox are you using?
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Re: SPYDER SILVERSTONE KITCAR 3SGE COP

Postby suberimakuri » Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:46 pm

Hey Spyder, cool setup. Well done and glad to see you went throttles.
The high res ms1 extra code was a good revision.
Probably doesn't matter but if you can spring for a ms2 or ms3 chip it would be worth doing. It is noticeably better. Ms1 still works good though!

I had a couple gen 2 3sge in my rwd Carina some 10 years or so ago. Had fuel only and stock ECU for spark. Only got about 25 deg max timing and it ran 110rwkw or something.
The j160 box you've done is great. I had w55 behind move.
There is a rare w to s bell housing and you can also use the w to c bell housing I understand. Starter location is different though.
I had mine upright but didn't seem to have oil issues due to that.
I had a winged sump made but went back to 4age so never used.

I've found AN best for itbs unless doing itb mode on ms3 code.

Keep the progress coming.
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Re: SPYDER SILVERSTONE KITCAR 3SGE COP

Postby spyder » Thu Jan 05, 2017 6:48 am

Hi there. I've recently upgraded to MS2. :D I'm presently getting to grips with ITB mode and it's coming along nicely.
The throttle bodies were a great mod, well worth the effort. The 3SGE is a fab motor.
I had a quick rolling road session prior to going MS2 and the max advance is now 32 degrees.
Thankyou to Phil at ExtraEFI for the upgrade.
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Re: SPYDER SILVERSTONE KITCAR 3SGE COP

Postby suberimakuri » Thu Jan 05, 2017 1:02 pm

Awesome. Way to go.
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Re: SPYDER SILVERSTONE KITCAR 3SGE COP

Postby benckj » Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:35 am

I'm also running a 3sge rev 3 in a MR2 but on stock ECU. Odd question, can you tell me if the cam belt is different from earlier models and what tooth count is? Can't quite make out markings of numbers in pic.

Thanks,
Jim
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Re: SPYDER SILVERSTONE KITCAR 3SGE COP

Postby spyder » Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:56 pm

Its a 177 tooth belt. Whether this is different to earlier cars I have no idea.
Here are a few pics of the manifold in it's welding jig and the final result.

Image

Image
Last edited by spyder on Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SPYDER SILVERSTONE KITCAR 3SGE COP

Postby benckj » Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:20 pm

Nice work, very impressive. Found out earlier cam belts are 174T where later models are 175T depending on the oil pump gear diameter.

Jim
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Re: SPYDER SILVERSTONE KITCAR 3SGE COP

Postby lifeandffl » Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:23 am

spyder wrote:Hi Joey. I had to modify the sump a little as it sits very low in my car. It only amounted to cutting off the lowest bit and re-plating flat.
I left the pickup standard.
I initially had slight oil starvation on prolonged right hand bends but I now overfill it a bit and no longer have any problems.
Having said that my engine wouldn't cost much to replace, unlike yours. Mine is only used on the road too.
In your position I would be tempted to fit an Accusump or similar.
What gearbox are you using?


Oh man, I'm sorry I didn't update this for so long. I'm currently waiting on another set of cams since the last set that we welded up and reground ended up being too soft and went flat in less than 100 miles. The new set have been made up and should be ready to go in the next few weeks.

We also ended up modifying the oil pan as it was by far the lowest point of the car and relocated the oil filter as well.

I did end up mounting an accusump to the car and, if the pump wasn't trying to push through iron filings from the cams, it would seemed to do well.

I'm running a W58 with a modified Toyota Van bellhousing.

Some pictures of the build.
https://1drv.ms/a/s!AgEFazNYAPa8hOIHsvaARaLN1Rb6Rw

-Joey
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Re: SPYDER SILVERSTONE KITCAR 3SGE COP

Postby spyder » Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:43 pm

Hi Joey. I'd be interested on how the cam swap was working out. What spec are you aiming for?
Aftermarket cams aren't cheap in the UK and seldom appear on the used market.
If you have any before/after figures I'd love to see them.
I'm considering a cam swap but am unsure whether to retain the standard bottom end. What can a standard Rev3
bottom end rev to? If necessary I might build another engine with stronger rods etc.
I would entrust any head reworking to my friend, Peter Burgess.

My present setup now has EAE up and running. Wasn't easy but well worth it.
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Re: SPYDER SILVERSTONE KITCAR 3SGE COP

Postby julio.t » Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:50 pm

Hi Mates , navigating on this forum I found this thread about 3SGE naturaly aspirated setups , I made some research and worked with this engines on the last ten years
because of my drag car proyect and I want to share some info and pictures , its not very common to found this engine in forums comparing with others engines so
It was nice to saw the pictures already loaded and I want to share mine pictures too.
I have an engine building and dyno tuning workshop its my daily work so I have the opportunity to research and modified it a lot .
The drag car proyect doesnt have succes because a lot of errors on desing the chassis, is a very long story but not traction at all and ended crached on the sidewall with only
material damages. so I have to disassembled the car .
But the important thing here is I learn a lot with this engine on engine building and tuning, the engine perform very well without any problems.
I have the opportunity to test the engine in stock setup with stock internals, stock cams, completely stock and also test the race built engine with forged internals high compresion ratio, ported and modified cylinder head and big lift and duration cams , with both setups I used the throttle bodies and exhaust system that were build for the race engine so there are to big for the stock engine but the intention was test the all the car systems and made base maps and configuration for the ecu.
I suspect thta all of you 3SGE users know the specs of the stock 3SGE GEN 3 so the High lights specs for the race engine are TWM 50 mm throttle bodies , 11.8:1 C.R. Carillo rods , Arias custom pistons , ported cylinder head and 1mm bigger valves , Kelford big lift and duration cams 307in/300ex duration and 12.5in/10.65ex mm lift there are not bolt on cams a lot of machiningn on the cylinder head for install them , because the 3SGE GEN3 accept max lift 10.80 mm and this intake cam have 12.5 mm so we have to machine the sides of the buckets holes also we fabricate custom intake valve guides to have cleareance with the valve retainer when the lobe is in the more open position ...... and also we made by hand a steel sheet metal intake manifold to use it to make a mold and then send it to a cast factory to made some replicas in aluminum. We use a Toyoya 2S sump , oil pickup and bellhousing,(Toyota 2S engine came to my country on older Coronas 1985-1988 in rwd format) the 2S engine have an almost equal engine block so the the sump could be used to put the engine in the car without the inclination that came on the fwd format is not the best setup because only the intake side on the cylinder head have drain holes for evacuating excess oil the problem is when you have to much blowby in the cylinders and have to evacuate a lot of engine gases thru the evac ports on the cams cover , so to problems joined excess oil on the cams zone and to much blowby gases to evacuate thru the cam cover the engine ended spliting oil thru the evac ports I dont have that problem maybe because the engeine always have new piston rings and few kilometers of usage but some friends with similar conversions have problems with that issue.
In stock setup the engine achieved 156 WHP @ 7200 rpm the race built engine achieved 197 WHP @ 8000 rpm .
Here are some pictures , If any have some questions please ask me , maybe I can help with something.

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Re: SPYDER SILVERSTONE KITCAR 3SGE COP

Postby julio.t » Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:00 pm

Some more pictures that I cant upload in the previous post

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Re: SPYDER SILVERSTONE KITCAR 3SGE COP

Postby spyder » Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:42 pm

Nice work Julio! Can you help me? I'm planning to build a new Rev3 engine for my car. I'm aiming for around 220 flywheel hp.
I guess that the standard crank would be OK but what about the rods? My budget may not stretch to big valves but probably 3 angle valve seats and a clean up of the ports.
Something like Kelford 3-195-B cams. 296/284. 11.20mm / 10.5mm.
11.5-1 CR
What do you think?
Will my 42mm throttle bodies cope?
Would the 3-195-A be better?
What head gaskets do you use?
Do you have any parts to sell that might suit?

Thanks, Geoff.
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Re: SPYDER SILVERSTONE KITCAR 3SGE COP

Postby julio.t » Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:09 pm

Hi Geoff, sorry for the late answer.
220 flywheel hp is possible with a 3SGE gen 3, my last 3sge engine have 197hp to the wheels , I think thats 225-230hp to the flywheel, but with a very basic fuel, ignition and cam tuning, I think it could achive maybe around 10hp more with more time tuning it , yes I know my engine have big valves , bigger camshaft , a little more compression but is an example that a well builded 3sge can pick up power with good reability, not easy like all things in life but without problems and to much spent.

I think its possible to be around 220 flywheel hp with the setup you described , if I have to build an engine for that level of power I would try just like your setup and see what happens, be sure that if well builded and well tuned you are going to be close or around your benchmark the stock cylinder head with stock diameter valves can support that level of power if fitted with a set of cams (more lift) that allow flow the ports , you could look for bigger valves, bigger cams or more compression but there are some custom work on machining to accommodate all those "bigger parts" on the 3sge engine.

For the crankshaft you dont have to worry at all, its very strong , just check for straighteness and polish the journals if it is neccesary...
Rods are strong also, I used stock rods up to 8500 rpm without problems on many 3sge engines, on my last full race engine I put some nice Carillo I beam forged rods that engine build max power at 8000-8200 rpm and the shift point was 9000 rpm was a drag racing engine.
I think you are going to spin the engine in the region of 7800-8000 rpm to achive around your benchmark power, for that rpm its not a bad expense a forged rod with special bolts but If budget not allowed , all I can tell you is that I used many times stock rods without problems.
11,5: 1 compression ratio seems perfect to me, wich pistons are you going to use? , there are not much on the market for 3sge gen3 . take care most north american brands sell aftermarket pistons based on the 3sge gen 2 mr2 engine , the combustion chamber is slightly diferent so the dome of the piston have to diferent if it is a tall dome piston, flat or low dome piston dont have interchange problems ....
Definitely have to use the 3-195-B cams to that power level .
Dont go beyond that amount of lift 11.20 mm because there is a lot of machining modifications on the cylinder head around the bucket bore area and have to cut the valve guides to use more lift...
A good investment is a proper set of vernier pulleys .... you are going to tune your cams and install them on the right place.
I use oem multilayer steel gasket , it cames on the 3sge turbo version , I have the part number in the workshop if you need it . just ask me.
42mm throttle bodies are not going to be a big restriction on the induction side, maybe a little more diameter could be better, but if they are working fine I would not worry for now...
On the last two years I sell the mayority of parts to start a new proyect... I play with 3sge engines for the last ten years , I like the engine very much
is a strong and simple engine with nice flowing cylinder heads also it have some design restrictions comparing it with newer and more race oriented designs like the honda k20 or late models nissan sr20 engines , well there are newer toyotas 3sge engines and the beams too but they are more complex with variable cam timing and drive by wire systems , well I think I am a little out of subject...
Maybe you could fine some pictures and videos about 3sge engines in my facebook page.
https://www.facebook.com/mecanicatomatis/

If you have any question , just ask me .
Regards
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