AFR Target table discrepancy

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Kurt A
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AFR Target table discrepancy

Post by Kurt A »

Hi Phil Congrats on the new software it sure looks nice.
I found a discrepancy that you may or may not be aware of.
In Megatune the AFR target table is only visable as voltage when an LC-1 wideband is used. So to get my voltages correct I would install a said voltage across say the 140kpa table. I would then open up my MSQ in MLV and read what the actual AFR is on that table and recorrect the voltage until it read 12.5 AFR. I did this for my entire table and went in .5 AFR steps all the way to 14.7 AFR. What I noticed is that when I open the same AFR target table in TS It is reporting all of my thought to be 12.5 AFR's at 11.3 AFR.
Kurt
Rotax 912 turbo'd under construction MS2 Extra
2005 Mustang GT, turbo'd, aluminum heads, MS2 Extra
1928 Ford Coupe, 545BBF,671 blower, Squirted by MS2 extra 3.1.0, V3.0 Board
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Re: AFR Target table discrepancy

Post by LT401Vette »

Kurt A wrote: In Megatune the AFR target table is only visable as voltage when an LC-1 wideband is used.
That shouldn't be. I see in your sig you are running 29V, That ini does support AFR display in MegaTune. How do you have your sensor setup in MegaTune , there are 3 Innovate selections to choose from:
INNOVATE_1_2_LINEAR "Innovate sensor giving 1-2V 10-20:1 AFR"
INNOVATE_0_5_LINEAR "Innovate, PLX 0-5V 10-20:1 AFR"
INNOVATE_LC1_DEFAULT "Innovate LC-1 default, 0-5v = 0.5-1.5 lambda"

They are all linear, but with different programs. The second 2 are the most common. 10-20:1 is the default programming for the LM-1 and is commonly used with the LC-1 by reprogramming it, but now it is more common to just use the LC-1 default setting. The LC-1 default setting didn't used to be there a year or 2 ago, but there is still a lot of documentation on the web that is easily stumbled across that will lead people to still use the 10:1-20:1.

What WB sensor are you selecting in MLV?
Have you programmed your LC-1 to be 10:1-20:1 or are you still running the default 7.35:1 - 22.05:1 ?
Phil Tobin
EFI Analytics, helping to simplify EFI
Next Generation tuning software.
Supporting all MegaSquirt versions and firmwares.
http://www.TunerStudio.com
http://www.efiAnalytics.com/MegaLogViewer/
Support the firmware running your engine:
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LT401Vette
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Re: AFR Target table discrepancy

Post by LT401Vette »

One more question.... Because if you are seeing volts in MegaTune, still MLV and TunerStudio MS should be converting them the same. Do you have the same of the 3 Innovate options selected in both TSMS and MLV?

In TSMS it is sort of confusing now because the list is populated in a random order, so the innovates are not together and narrowband can start low enough in the list you have to scroll up to see the right innovate. I'll at least get some sorting on there, but would like to simplify the whole thing.
Phil Tobin
EFI Analytics, helping to simplify EFI
Next Generation tuning software.
Supporting all MegaSquirt versions and firmwares.
http://www.TunerStudio.com
http://www.efiAnalytics.com/MegaLogViewer/
Support the firmware running your engine:
http://www.msextra.com/doc/donations.html
Kurt A
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Re: AFR Target table discrepancy

Post by Kurt A »

Hi Phil,
Thanks for the reply, I have MLV and TSMS both set the same, I think. I am looking directly at the programs as I type to make sure
Innovate, PLX 0-5V 10-20:1 AFR is in the EGO O2 Sensor box in TSMS
innovate 0-5V (19:1-20:1) is ticked in MLV. (I do not see PLX in MLV)

Lamba Sensor setting in configurator is:
# set innovate_0_5_ Linear "Innovate PLX 0-5V 10-20:1 AFR"
All others are unset.

LC-1 is set up as follows:
Analog out 2 feeds the MS and is set to:
0.000V = 10.00 AFR
5.000V = 20.00 AFR
Use AFR radio dial ticked

Analog out 1 feeds G3 Gauge and is set to:
0.000V = 7.350 AFR
5.000V = 22.39 AFR
use AFR radio dial ticked

Very Interesting that you should state that the 029V Target AFR Table should be reading in AFR not volts. It has never read in AFR since new over the last 2 years. I do not know were I got the info that this is normal with an LC-1. What is even more interesting is that recently the front page of Megatune is also messing up. The AFR gauge on the front page has also started to read in what appears to be voltages rather than AFR's. I am wondering now if I have some corrupted files from the get go.
See recent post in Megatune for help here:
http://www.msextra.com/viewtopic.php?f=98&t=28898
I also have my MSQ and a short datalog there as well.

Let me try you on some voltages that I recorded when I was programing as indicated in the original post. These are from MLV
2.36V=14.7AFR
2.00V=14.0AFR
1.80V=13.6AFR
1.51V=13.0AFR
1.29V=12.5AFR
This is what I came up with when swapping back and forth from megatune to MLV looking at my AFR target table.

In TSMS I see the following:
2.36V=12.3AFR
2.00V=12.0AFR
1.80V=11.8AFR
1.51V=11.5AFR
1.29V=11.3AFR

Kurt
Rotax 912 turbo'd under construction MS2 Extra
2005 Mustang GT, turbo'd, aluminum heads, MS2 Extra
1928 Ford Coupe, 545BBF,671 blower, Squirted by MS2 extra 3.1.0, V3.0 Board
LT401Vette
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Re: AFR Target table discrepancy

Post by LT401Vette »

Kurta,
I went and picked up your msq from the other thread, and TSMS was sure enough showing unexpected values..... What looks to be happening is the configuration is defined to have AFR and it is loading as such, it is missing the validation of same units and volt to AFR conversion. This should normally never happen except your msq has volts in it for some reason.

I'm going to check into the missing validations to fix this loading, but in the mean time;
If you connect to your MS with TunerStudio and save the msq from there, it will save it correctly. I'm sort of curious as to why it is saving volts from MT?? I am assuming you are using the standard 29q ini file?
Phil Tobin
EFI Analytics, helping to simplify EFI
Next Generation tuning software.
Supporting all MegaSquirt versions and firmwares.
http://www.TunerStudio.com
http://www.efiAnalytics.com/MegaLogViewer/
Support the firmware running your engine:
http://www.msextra.com/doc/donations.html
LT401Vette
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Re: AFR Target table discrepancy

Post by LT401Vette »

I just loaded your msq into MegaTune with it configured for 29v to see how MegaTune handled the Units mismatch. It actually loaded it exactly the same as TunerStudioMS. It then issued 2 warnings in the audit.log:
WARNING(04): Constant "afrBins1" units mismatch, "Volts" in msq, expected "AFR" from ini.

WARNING(04): Constant "afrBins2" units mismatch, "Volts" in msq, expected "AFR" from ini.

So I'm thinking your MegaTune project has something not right, wrong ini???
Maybe create a new project with the ini straight from the firmware and see what happens.
Phil Tobin
EFI Analytics, helping to simplify EFI
Next Generation tuning software.
Supporting all MegaSquirt versions and firmwares.
http://www.TunerStudio.com
http://www.efiAnalytics.com/MegaLogViewer/
Support the firmware running your engine:
http://www.msextra.com/doc/donations.html
Kurt A
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Re: AFR Target table discrepancy

Post by Kurt A »

Good morning Phil,
I am assuming you are using the standard 29q ini file?
If I remember this correctly the only thing that I changed in my INI file is that I added a decimal place so that in my datalogs I could read "system" voltage without the choppyness that is created when when not using a decimal place. So the answer to your question is no I am not using a standard INI file it is custom and named custom as well.
Maybe create a new project with the ini straight from the firmware and see what happens.
Will do, would be nice to get this sorted out and I know from past experience that you da Man.

Just curious do you think this will solve my weird AFR gauge happenings in MT as well?
Thanks for your incredible support
Kurt
Rotax 912 turbo'd under construction MS2 Extra
2005 Mustang GT, turbo'd, aluminum heads, MS2 Extra
1928 Ford Coupe, 545BBF,671 blower, Squirted by MS2 extra 3.1.0, V3.0 Board
Kurt A
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Re: AFR Target table discrepancy

Post by Kurt A »

Ok Phil, I created a new project using configurator named it Car2 and opened up AFR target table for VEtable 1 and it is displaying (Volts) in the header. That is without filling any programable areas such as eng constants etc. I did fill out the normal settings such as code variant etc. I then created project Car3 and filled nothing at all out when AFR Target table for VE1 is opened it also displays (Volts) in the header.
Kurt
Rotax 912 turbo'd under construction MS2 Extra
2005 Mustang GT, turbo'd, aluminum heads, MS2 Extra
1928 Ford Coupe, 545BBF,671 blower, Squirted by MS2 extra 3.1.0, V3.0 Board
LT401Vette
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Re: AFR Target table discrepancy

Post by LT401Vette »

can you send me the ini you are using? p_tobin@yahoo.com
Are you puttin gthe ini in the car2\projectCfg folder?
Phil Tobin
EFI Analytics, helping to simplify EFI
Next Generation tuning software.
Supporting all MegaSquirt versions and firmwares.
http://www.TunerStudio.com
http://www.efiAnalytics.com/MegaLogViewer/
Support the firmware running your engine:
http://www.msextra.com/doc/donations.html
LT401Vette
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Re: AFR Target table discrepancy

Post by LT401Vette »

Yeah, because when I opened your msq in my MegaTune project, it says AFR in the title bar and gives the same values as TSMS even though it is volts in the msq....
It has to be reading Volts as the units when it reads the ini file. That is where that comes from. Units are defined in the ini. So I think we have to be coming down to some type of ini confusion.
Phil Tobin
EFI Analytics, helping to simplify EFI
Next Generation tuning software.
Supporting all MegaSquirt versions and firmwares.
http://www.TunerStudio.com
http://www.efiAnalytics.com/MegaLogViewer/
Support the firmware running your engine:
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Kurt A
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Re: AFR Target table discrepancy

Post by Kurt A »

Ok Phil, files are sent to your e-mail.
Are you puttin gthe ini in the car2\projectCfg folder?
When I created the Car2 folder I never put anything in it from anywhere else. I just ticked the normal selections in configurator, ie selected wideband o2 sensor innovate 0-5volt etc.
Kurt
Rotax 912 turbo'd under construction MS2 Extra
2005 Mustang GT, turbo'd, aluminum heads, MS2 Extra
1928 Ford Coupe, 545BBF,671 blower, Squirted by MS2 extra 3.1.0, V3.0 Board
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Re: AFR Target table discrepancy

Post by LT401Vette »

So what that means is your new car projects are using the same ini as your original. If MegaTune doesn't find the ini file in the car/projectCfg folder it uses the one under MegaTune2.25\mtCfg

If you take the msns-extra.ini file from the firmware zip file and put it in your carX\projectCfg dir
Phil Tobin
EFI Analytics, helping to simplify EFI
Next Generation tuning software.
Supporting all MegaSquirt versions and firmwares.
http://www.TunerStudio.com
http://www.efiAnalytics.com/MegaLogViewer/
Support the firmware running your engine:
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Kurt A
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Re: AFR Target table discrepancy

Post by Kurt A »

Phil, I am getting a little confused here.
If you take the msns-extra.ini file from the firmware zip file and put it in your carX\projectCfg dir
How do I get the msns-extra.ini file out of the firmware zip file? Do I just run the installer?

I did a search on my computer for "msns-extra.ini" and found 9 results. 1 is in c:\programfiles\megasquirt\029V, 7 of the others are in C:\programfiles\megasquirt\Megatune2.25\mtCfg and I also found 1 that is in hr_08g

Kurt
Rotax 912 turbo'd under construction MS2 Extra
2005 Mustang GT, turbo'd, aluminum heads, MS2 Extra
1928 Ford Coupe, 545BBF,671 blower, Squirted by MS2 extra 3.1.0, V3.0 Board
LT401Vette
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Re: AFR Target table discrepancy

Post by LT401Vette »

Phil Tobin
EFI Analytics, helping to simplify EFI
Next Generation tuning software.
Supporting all MegaSquirt versions and firmwares.
http://www.TunerStudio.com
http://www.efiAnalytics.com/MegaLogViewer/
Support the firmware running your engine:
http://www.msextra.com/doc/donations.html
Kurt A
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Re: AFR Target table discrepancy

Post by Kurt A »

Right on Phil,
That makes my Target Tables read in AFR in both TSMS and MT for Car2. I tried putting the same ini file in to the same place in the Car1 file. My car1 target tables still read in volts in MT and the AFR's in TSMS are still wrong.
Kurt
Rotax 912 turbo'd under construction MS2 Extra
2005 Mustang GT, turbo'd, aluminum heads, MS2 Extra
1928 Ford Coupe, 545BBF,671 blower, Squirted by MS2 extra 3.1.0, V3.0 Board
LT401Vette
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Re: AFR Target table discrepancy

Post by LT401Vette »

Now if you connect to your MS from the Car2 project in MT or TSMS and save a new msq, all should be good. Don't open the old one or let it burn the values back to the unit. The math will go wrong.
Phil Tobin
EFI Analytics, helping to simplify EFI
Next Generation tuning software.
Supporting all MegaSquirt versions and firmwares.
http://www.TunerStudio.com
http://www.efiAnalytics.com/MegaLogViewer/
Support the firmware running your engine:
http://www.msextra.com/doc/donations.html
Kurt A
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Re: AFR Target table discrepancy

Post by Kurt A »

Sounds good Phil,
I will try it tonight after work.
Kurt
Rotax 912 turbo'd under construction MS2 Extra
2005 Mustang GT, turbo'd, aluminum heads, MS2 Extra
1928 Ford Coupe, 545BBF,671 blower, Squirted by MS2 extra 3.1.0, V3.0 Board
Kurt A
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Re: AFR Target table discrepancy

Post by Kurt A »

Ok Phil,
I connected to MS and did not open the old car1 MSQ. I clicked on the "save as" tab and selected Car2 project and saved the MSQ in to the car2 project file. No Luck! The AFR table still reads in Volts. Last night when I configured the Car2 project MT would ask we which project I wanted to open. Now it will not ask me which project to open, so I can not physically get the Car2 project open before connecting to MS. I even tried opening another new project and importing the msns-extra.ini file, no dice cannot open that project either.
Sorry for being such a pain
Kurt
Rotax 912 turbo'd under construction MS2 Extra
2005 Mustang GT, turbo'd, aluminum heads, MS2 Extra
1928 Ford Coupe, 545BBF,671 blower, Squirted by MS2 extra 3.1.0, V3.0 Board
LT401Vette
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Re: AFR Target table discrepancy

Post by LT401Vette »

Now it will not ask me which project to open, so I can not physically get the Car2 project open before connecting to MS. I even tried opening another new project and importing the msns-extra.ini file, no dice cannot open that project either.
It sounds like you connected to the MS using the car1 project, so it would save in volts as always. If Megatune doesn't offer the choice of projects, it doesn't detect your other projects as valid MegaTune projects. Try creating one in the configurator, or copy that ini to the car1\projectCfg folder.

Or you could connect with TunerStudio and save the msq, I bet that would work :)

If we are going to focus on fixing MegaTune, we should move this over to the MegaTune forum.
Phil Tobin
EFI Analytics, helping to simplify EFI
Next Generation tuning software.
Supporting all MegaSquirt versions and firmwares.
http://www.TunerStudio.com
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Support the firmware running your engine:
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Kurt A
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Re: AFR Target table discrepancy

Post by Kurt A »

Hi Phil,
Try creating one in the configurator, or copy that ini to the car1\projectCfg folder.
Every project that I created thus far has been with configurator, I don't know how to do it any other way. I did try copying the ini that you gave me to the car1 project folder last night and that made no difference as well.
Or you could connect with TunerStudio and save the msq, I bet that would work
I have connected with TSMS and saved the MSQ that is how I originally found the huge descrepency between my AFR Target Tables that started the original post "1.29 volts in MT giving 12.5 AFR in MLV and 11.3 AFR in TSMS".

Now that we know that MT is the one that has the problem it really matters not anymore. It would be nice to fix the program as it is a good learning curve for myself, however you need to spend some quality time with others on the board as well as continue working on steady improvements to MLV and TSMS. I my opinion right now I can see that MT is giving me 3 problems if not more that I have not seen yet.
1) Not displaying AFR Target Tables correctly.
2) AFR Gauge on front page not displaying correctly.
3) Not recognizing created projects other than car1.
This is enough to me to say that the program has corrupted files and is time to dump it and start fresh. With the support that you provide even with software that has not been written by you I see every reason in the world to make a permanant switch over to TSMS.

Kurt
Rotax 912 turbo'd under construction MS2 Extra
2005 Mustang GT, turbo'd, aluminum heads, MS2 Extra
1928 Ford Coupe, 545BBF,671 blower, Squirted by MS2 extra 3.1.0, V3.0 Board
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