AE set up

For discussion of Phil Tobin's Tuner Studio software (Only about the tuning software itself, not about how to tune or firmware features)

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Kurt A
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AE set up

Post by Kurt A »

Hi Phil,
A couple quick questions,
1) Is there a way to make the tuning screens stay full screen? Every time I open the screens I have to drag the borders out to get full screen.
2) In the Accel Wizard is there a way to get the red V/S indicator line to show better? By that what I mean is that during light openings of the throttle to adjust that portion of AE I am not seeing any indication of V/S. Even when I mash the throttle as hard as I can I am only seeing 14-15 V/S.
I have the tpsDot threshold set as low as it will go 0.561 and the mapDot threshold set to 30. I am seeing the same issue with mapDot as well.
Kurt
Rotax 912 turbo'd under construction MS2 Extra
2005 Mustang GT, turbo'd, aluminum heads, MS2 Extra
1928 Ford Coupe, 545BBF,671 blower, Squirted by MS2 extra 3.1.0, V3.0 Board
LT401Vette
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Re: AE set up

Post by LT401Vette »

1) Opps, I didn't notice I broke that. I added a pack after it was visible to fix a layout problem with Tables. It got the curves. It was a one line fix, the next release will remember the size again.

2) I know what you mean, once I went out using it in the real world I ran into the same problem. I'm going to give a couple things a try.
- Zoom in, the equivalent of zoom in MegaLogViewer, either x2 or x3, the down side here is the line will move twice as fast.
- A thicker line, maybe a 2 pixel wide line instead.
- Perhaps auto scale the line, instead of setting the mins and max to the channel min and max, set the max to the max seen, again sort of like MegaLogViewer does by default.

Another thing I could see would come in handy is some sort of pause on the live graph. Sometimes I need a minute to thing or look at it, but it keeps cruising right across the screen and off. So if not a pause, maybe only capture and display data if mapDOT or tpsDOT are up.
Phil Tobin
EFI Analytics, helping to simplify EFI
Next Generation tuning software.
Supporting all MegaSquirt versions and firmwares.
http://www.TunerStudio.com
http://www.efiAnalytics.com/MegaLogViewer/
Support the firmware running your engine:
http://www.msextra.com/doc/donations.html
shauer
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Re: AE set up

Post by shauer »

I think a pause button on the live display would be the way to go. If you are able to create a similar wizard for EAE someday the thinking involved in analyzing the live data is even more complicated and a pause button to be able to think over what just happened would be great.

I think the pause would come in handy for just about any tuning wizard that is added in the future that might make use of a live display.
Steve Hauer
http://www.77e21.info
1977 BMW 320i with MAF, COP, IAC, Sequential fuel and spark, MS3 knock sensing
MS3 / MS3X / V3 mainboard, MS3 V1.5 a4
Kurt A
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Re: AE set up

Post by Kurt A »

Phil you are a mind reader! I just decided to give the neighbours a break and come in for a while. I thought I would check my post and add about the screen rolling off the page and low and behold you beat me to it. Yes a pause like MLV would be awesome, I even tried hitting the P key and said to my self, What up? :-)
LT401Vette wrote:- Perhaps auto scale the line, instead of setting the mins and max to the channel min and max, set the max to the max seen, again sort of like MegaLogViewer does by default.


I think this idea is great
Thanks for such an awesome program
Kurt
Rotax 912 turbo'd under construction MS2 Extra
2005 Mustang GT, turbo'd, aluminum heads, MS2 Extra
1928 Ford Coupe, 545BBF,671 blower, Squirted by MS2 extra 3.1.0, V3.0 Board
LT401Vette
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Re: AE set up

Post by LT401Vette »

Sometimes I spend too much time inside coding. When I make it out to tune, that is when the light bulbs come on. Unfortunately there aren't enough hours in the day, so I don't always make it out. That is why the feed back from you guys is so Great!!! Keep it coming.
Phil Tobin
EFI Analytics, helping to simplify EFI
Next Generation tuning software.
Supporting all MegaSquirt versions and firmwares.
http://www.TunerStudio.com
http://www.efiAnalytics.com/MegaLogViewer/
Support the firmware running your engine:
http://www.msextra.com/doc/donations.html
Kurt A
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Re: AE set up

Post by Kurt A »

Phil, I was out terrorizing the neigbours again and after reviewing my logs I came up with a brain storm. Please correct me if I am way off base here, I am not a math wizard but I do have a calculator. According to my logs, the greatest rate of MAP change was holding the RPM at about 1500 RPM and punching the throttle. I went from 38 kpa to 108 kpa in .188 ms, so (here comes the calculator) that tells me that my eng is capable of a 372 kpa/s rate of change. The highest I can set the rate of change in mapDot is 300 kpa/s.
The other thing that I found was that my greatest rate of change in Map with no outside inputs ie. TPS change, was at idle speed. I found that the MAP could change as fast as 1 kpa in .063 ms. (calculator again) I get 15.87 kpa/sec, so I say to self that a number like 17.00 kpa/sec would be just right for mapDot threshold. The lowest number that TSMS will let me put in is 20 kpa/sec.
I am curious as to your thoughts on my findings as I am sure there is a very good reason for TSMS being set up the way that you have it.
By the way I have mapDot based accel working very well now, I Think????? And thanks to you and TSMS, the driveability of my car has came together more in the last 2 weeks than it has in the last 6 months.
Kurt
Rotax 912 turbo'd under construction MS2 Extra
2005 Mustang GT, turbo'd, aluminum heads, MS2 Extra
1928 Ford Coupe, 545BBF,671 blower, Squirted by MS2 extra 3.1.0, V3.0 Board
LT401Vette
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Re: AE set up

Post by LT401Vette »

The 300 kPa/s is purely artificial. That can be all the way up to 2550 kPa/s on MS1-Extra firmware. The only reason I have a cap lower than that is so the graph isn't crammed all to the left side. The 300 is based on the bar maximum in MegaTune's Accel Wizard :). Just pulling up a log in MLV, I see mapDOT can crack 800 kPa/s even my big cammed motor when I dropped it from 1400 RPM.
Now the question is, even though you can achieve much higher kPa/s, would you still need to add more fuel at those levels? Like with tpsDot, I usually have the highest v/s at around 15, but I can see spikes of over 40 v/s, but if I reached 15, I'm already treating it like a smash and not doing more.

I guess how high would you see users actually setting it? Just a bit more head room, say 360 or lots more like 600 or more. From a programmers point, it should just be set to the maximum defined in the ini, in this case 2550, but that gives the left side squash... It probably should be a logrhythmic graph :)

The low Threashold, that is out of my control. The minimum for MS1 Extra is actually 0, the problem is that it is a 1 byte field scaled by 10, so if you set it to 20, the firmware sees it as 2, set it to 300, the firmware sees 30.... So there just isn't enough granularity in the firmware for a 17
Phil Tobin
EFI Analytics, helping to simplify EFI
Next Generation tuning software.
Supporting all MegaSquirt versions and firmwares.
http://www.TunerStudio.com
http://www.efiAnalytics.com/MegaLogViewer/
Support the firmware running your engine:
http://www.msextra.com/doc/donations.html
Kurt A
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Re: AE set up

Post by Kurt A »

Phil that makes total sense, thanks for the explanation.
Kurt
Rotax 912 turbo'd under construction MS2 Extra
2005 Mustang GT, turbo'd, aluminum heads, MS2 Extra
1928 Ford Coupe, 545BBF,671 blower, Squirted by MS2 extra 3.1.0, V3.0 Board
LT401Vette
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Re: AE set up

Post by LT401Vette »

I'd like some opinions on what you think might work better for a max kPa/s on the mapDOT. I haven't tuned many cars on the mapDOT. I usually have big cams, so the map signal is not real strong at idle.
Phil Tobin
EFI Analytics, helping to simplify EFI
Next Generation tuning software.
Supporting all MegaSquirt versions and firmwares.
http://www.TunerStudio.com
http://www.efiAnalytics.com/MegaLogViewer/
Support the firmware running your engine:
http://www.msextra.com/doc/donations.html
Kurt A
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Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 11:26 pm
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Re: AE set up

Post by Kurt A »

Phil,
The trailing log is a great idea and as we discussed a pause button would be a welcome feature. The next most important in my opinion would be a better form of histographing the actual kpa/sec. In the current version the green dot and line on the AE graph works fine in the TPS based AE graph but not at all in the Map based graph. How about getting the green line and dot to ghost and pause like on the dash gauges in TSMS. The trailing graph for kpa/sec does not appear to me to be showing actual values as compared to my logs with MLV. Having the same displayed rate values on the AE graph and the trailing graph would also be nice. Less math to do in your head quickly before the trailing graph disappears on you:-)

As for minimum's and maximum's Phil I think you had the best idea so far: Making the graph self expandable (like MLV) depending on the actual value seen. Users could look at the graph and see that 90% of the time I only used a value of say 250 kpa/sec and I had a couple spikes in the 800 kpa/sec but the eng accelerated fine in that area anyway so no tuning would be required. (Don't fix what aint broke motto) The neat part about the self expanding graph is that it would fit every eng combination right from grammas grocery getter to a top fuel car as well as fit every tuners desires. One also never knows when new horsepower can be found, maybe a slow leaning of AE in the 400 -800 kpa is worth a quicker 60 ft time. Something like this could even be incorporated in to your up and coming version of autotune. That would be to cool to have AE tuned by a self learning function of your software.

Just had another brain wave, how about having the trailing log lay over top of the AE graph with the trailing graph values on the right column. Go with a full screen so the lines are nice and visible, the selection of mapdot or tpsdot could be selected from a drop down menu as well configuration settings (ie. threshold) on a drop down menu.

Just some idle ramblings from an addicted tuner
Kurt
Rotax 912 turbo'd under construction MS2 Extra
2005 Mustang GT, turbo'd, aluminum heads, MS2 Extra
1928 Ford Coupe, 545BBF,671 blower, Squirted by MS2 extra 3.1.0, V3.0 Board
LT401Vette
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Re: AE set up

Post by LT401Vette »

Kurt, we are on the same page. I actually just put in the auto-scaling last night and started putting a tel tail on the Curve Graph bubble.

Now when you are seeing different values in MLV, I'll have to look at the differences in how those are calculated for the ini OutputChannel verse MLV. I'm betting it is related to the delta T.

I really got a bit distracted then though when I found some big performance opportunities in the Curves and 3D Tables.... So that sucked me in.
Phil Tobin
EFI Analytics, helping to simplify EFI
Next Generation tuning software.
Supporting all MegaSquirt versions and firmwares.
http://www.TunerStudio.com
http://www.efiAnalytics.com/MegaLogViewer/
Support the firmware running your engine:
http://www.msextra.com/doc/donations.html
dave
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Re: AE set up

Post by dave »

what is the suggested way to tune this? usually i do all my tuning at home using a datalog but couldn't figure out how to apply that. is this AE thing done live?
LT401Vette
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Re: AE set up

Post by LT401Vette »

dave wrote:what is the suggested way to tune this? usually i do all my tuning at home using a datalog but couldn't figure out how to apply that. is this AE thing done live?
For tuning of the ve tables, I am with you, I usually do most of my tuning with data logs. However with AE tuning just the feel of the pedal is very important. So it usually works better to do much of your ae tuning while connected to the controller with the engine running. It is quite normal to have afr not necessarily stay right on target during stabs of the throttle. The important thing is how responsive the engine is and that there are no stumbles and bogs.
Phil Tobin
EFI Analytics, helping to simplify EFI
Next Generation tuning software.
Supporting all MegaSquirt versions and firmwares.
http://www.TunerStudio.com
http://www.efiAnalytics.com/MegaLogViewer/
Support the firmware running your engine:
http://www.msextra.com/doc/donations.html
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