VE table overlay when Multiply MAP is set to Don't Multiply

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msoultan
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VE table overlay when Multiply MAP is set to Don't Multiply

Post by msoultan »

Hey Phil,
I'm not sure if this is something you'd be willing to do or not, but I think it could prove to be really helpful to provide some kinda overlay for when users have the "Multiply MAP" option set to "Don't Multiply". The reason that this would be helpful is because MAP essentially gets pulled out of the fueling equation and then has to be compensated for in the VE table entry. The problem is now you have really big numbers and they are pretty meaningless. An example would be VE values around idle - when you have Multiply MAP set to Multiply, the values all around idle could be set to 58, for example. One row's 58 would be the same as the next row's 58 - both yielding the same AFR. If you have Multiply MAP set to Don't Multiply, then the values in the VE table won't work the same way. So, 2000 in one row will definitely not yield the same AFR as a VE value of 2000 in another row.

So, here's where your software could come in really handy. If the user set Multiply MAP to Don't Multiply, what you would do on the VE table is show the VE values like they look right now. The only difference is when the data actually gets sent to the MS, every value needs to be multiplied by that row's MAP index value. So, for example, if you had a VE value of 58 in the 43kPa row, the value displayed in the VE table would be 58, but the value sent to the MS would be 58*43=2494.

This way, when a user enters 58 on one row and 58 on another row, both of those values will yield the same AFR, even though the underlying number that was sent to the MS was different. Plus, MAP is still removed from the fueling equation like it's supposed to (when Multiply MAP is set to Don't Multiply) and the user is able to benefit from that feature without having cryptic numbers in their VE table.

Does that make sense? I don't know if that's horribly difficult, but I think it would definitely help people that are switching over. I was reading a few threads about people that switched over to Don't Multiply and they're having to do complete retunes with really large numbers for their VE values. If this feature existed TS, they could just switch over to Don't Multiply and all they'd have to do is resend the table and TS would automatically send over the adjusted values.

Or, is this something that can possibly be done in the INI?
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Re: VE table overlay when Multiply MAP is set to Don't Multiply

Post by LT401Vette »

I don't think the ini would currently support that as it sounds like you need to multiply a z value by the y value of the same index in the array. But that is how I would want to make it work so you could do it in the ini.
Phil Tobin
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msoultan
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Re: VE table overlay when Multiply MAP is set to Don't Multiply

Post by msoultan »

Yeah, I kinda figured an INI hack wouldn't do it, but I thought it couldn't hurt to ask :)

Heck, I'm not really even sure if this is something that would need to be in the INI as I can't think of any other circumstances that would warrant a weird MAP being sent to the controller, but I guess it couldn't hurt to make it configurable?

It would be handy if the VE table screen had a warning at the top of it showing that MAP was not being multiplied because now we have a situation where the MAP shown in the tuning software is not actually the MAP stored on the controller. That feature is a pretty significant change to how business is normally done...
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Re: VE table overlay when Multiply MAP is set to Don't Multiply

Post by LT401Vette »

A message at the top of the table sounds like another good ini addition.... The main reason I would still want it in the in is, well right now TS builds the ve table and all the tables purely from the meta data in the ini, it doesn't actually know the 1st thing about a ve table or doesn't know a ve table from a spark table. So it wouldn't know about an interesting option being set. :)
Phil Tobin
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msoultan
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Re: VE table overlay when Multiply MAP is set to Don't Multiply

Post by msoultan »

In the table editor section of the INI, are we allowed to add different items under "table =", or will that break MT? Can we use IF statements in there?
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Re: VE table overlay when Multiply MAP is set to Don't Multiply

Post by LT401Vette »

It would cause errors in MT unless you put it in the #if INI_VERSION_2 block.
You can put just the single line in the block even, but that could get messy pretty quick :(

Maybe a new short hand.... Start a special line of with ;#, MT would see that line as a comment when it hits the ;
TS would too, but I could make it so a ;# or something like that is not seen as a comment by TS.
Phil Tobin
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msoultan
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Re: VE table overlay when Multiply MAP is set to Don't Multiply

Post by msoultan »

We could do something like this with the VE table block:

Code: Select all

#if INI_VERSION_2
	#if loadMult = don't multiply
		tableMsg = "Multiply MAP disabled"
		do some TS-specific function to multiply table values by yBins when burning them to the controller
	#else
		tableMsg = "Multiply MAP enabled"
	#endif
#endif
But I don't remember whether or not TS supports "if something = something" statements...

the ;# isn't a bad idea either, but I do like the #if INI_VERSION_2 idea because it's very obvious...
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Re: VE table overlay when Multiply MAP is set to Don't Multiply

Post by LT401Vette »

I still haven't implemented the #if blah = x

Agreed, the ;# is not very readable and sort of hackish... The only reason I even consider it is, I can see the ini's could quickly fill with many if blocks to keep it MT compatible.
Phil Tobin
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msoultan
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Re: VE table overlay when Multiply MAP is set to Don't Multiply

Post by msoultan »

because loadMult is a boolean variable, would TS be able to handle it in the #if statement?
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Re: VE table overlay when Multiply MAP is set to Don't Multiply

Post by LT401Vette »

nope. All it uses is the set / unset type flags.
Phil Tobin
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Eagle7
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Re: VE table overlay when Multiply MAP is set to Don't Multiply

Post by Eagle7 »

I don't see the point in all of this. Your assertion that the same VE value in different rows would normally yield the same AFR is inherently wrong. That seemed to be your only motivation for this request, so why do it?

And BTW, you wouldn't multiply by Load, it would be by Load/100, which then introduces rounding issues which would make it maddening to use.
msoultan
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Re: VE table overlay when Multiply MAP is set to Don't Multiply

Post by msoultan »

Eagle7 wrote:I don't see the point in all of this. Your assertion that the same VE value in different rows would normally yield the same AFR is inherently wrong. That seemed to be your only motivation for this request, so why do it?
The reason for this is to make it easier to tune when Multiply MAP is disabled. What is happening is the variable MAP is getting shifted into a fixed VE entry. Are you familiar with what happens when you disabled Multiply MAP and what it does to the VE table?
And BTW, you wouldn't multiply by Load, it would be by Load/100, which then introduces rounding issues which would make it maddening to use.
Why would you multiply it by load/100? The fueling equation uses MAP in its product. This might cause some problems at altitude, but that can be tested and possibly compensated for with baro correction.
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Re: VE table overlay when Multiply MAP is set to Don't Multiply

Post by msoultan »

And remember, that's why I'm calling this an "overlay". I am asking Phil to provide an interface such that when a user enters 58 for a VE entry, it multiplies that values by the MAP row index value so that the proper VE product is uploaded to the MS. By doing this, it scales things nicely, but still effectively removes realtime MAP from the PW equation and shifts it into a fixed VE value.
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Re: VE table overlay when Multiply MAP is set to Don't Multiply

Post by Eagle7 »

msoultan wrote:
Eagle7 wrote:I don't see the point in all of this. Your assertion that the same VE value in different rows would normally yield the same AFR is inherently wrong. That seemed to be your only motivation for this request, so why do it?
The reason for this is to make it easier to tune when Multiply MAP is disabled. What is happening is the variable MAP is getting shifted into a fixed VE entry. Are you familiar with what happens when you disabled Multiply MAP and what it does to the VE table?
And BTW, you wouldn't multiply by Load, it would be by Load/100, which then introduces rounding issues which would make it maddening to use.
Why would you multiply it by load/100? The fueling equation uses MAP in its product. This might cause some problems at altitude, but that can be tested and possibly compensated for with baro correction.
Sure, if you turn off multiply map the numbers above the 100% row get larger and those below it get smaller. Number in the 20% row would need to be 1/5 the value that would be correct if multiply map were on.

When MS multiplys by the MAP value, it divides the KPA by 100. For the 20% row, table values are multiplied by 0.2. For the 150% row it multiplies by 1.5.

The maximum value for entries in the VE table is 255. Your example with values over 2000 can't be loaded into a MS.
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Re: VE table overlay when Multiply MAP is set to Don't Multiply

Post by msoultan »

I'm sorry - yes, my math is incorrect. Multiplying the MAP index back into the equation makes two of the same VE entries in different rows generate different a PW. Leaving it without the MAP integrated back in will generated a PW that is the same, regardless of whether the MAP shifts a little. That sound right?
msoultan
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Re: VE table overlay when Multiply MAP is set to Don't Multiply

Post by msoultan »

Eagle7 wrote:The maximum value for entries in the VE table is 255. Your example with values over 2000 can't be loaded into a MS.
I haven't tested it, but I would venture to guess that the MS2 chip can handle values larger than 255 because James added this feature and warned that there would be large VE values.

I got some testing to do :)
msoultan
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Re: VE table overlay when Multiply MAP is set to Don't Multiply

Post by msoultan »

Hey Phil,
While it looks like this table mod won't be necessary, it looks like some kinda indicator might be helpful so that people understand that they're not tuning a VE table in the traditional MS sense. I'm wondering if that's something that should go in the table itself, or as an indicator on the front. Maybe you could build indicators into the table editors and then we wouldn't have to try support if blax = x statements...

... anyways, just thinking out loud.. probably not the biggest issue in the world, but hopefully there won't be too many people that tune their engines with the "don't multiply" setting selected and then realize their errors later...
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Re: VE table overlay when Multiply MAP is set to Don't Multiply

Post by Eagle7 »

So is it just that you want a way to convert back to multiply map settings? That would be pretty easy to do in a spreadsheet in about 5 minutes.
msoultan
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Re: VE table overlay when Multiply MAP is set to Don't Multiply

Post by msoultan »

Eagle7 wrote:So is it just that you want a way to convert back to multiply map settings? That would be pretty easy to do in a spreadsheet in about 5 minutes.
Originally I was thinking that an overlay would be helpful for tuning the engine and keeping things consistent. I *thought* that having a value of 58 in my idle "zone" was actually flattening out the PW in that area - I was wrong. Instead, it looks like I need to create a "ramp" in the opposite direction to counteract the increasing MAP value and that should hold the PW. So, for example I would put 50 in the 50kpa row and 60 in the 40kpa row - that way when the MAP drifts up, the PW won't change because the VE entry is counteracting it. What I *thought* was flattening the idle area (using 58 for all idle VE entries), isn't really flattening out the PW. It just took me a short while to realize this.

Now, if I switch over to "don't multiply", then setting the same value for VE entries in different rows does yield the same PW, so I might still try that method as well... haven't really decided yet. The only problem then is that the MAP value won't be adjusted at higher altitudes, but that's where the baro curve can come in to play as MAP wasn't leaning out the mixture enough anyways...

As far as switching my VE table over to a "don't multiple" table, yes, like you said, that's just a simple matter of multiplying it out in Excel.

Mike
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