VEAL - How to modify O2 out of range limits?

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shauer
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VEAL - How to modify O2 out of range limits?

Post by shauer »

I really did search for this info, found a post on disabling the O2 out of range filter but not how to modify the limits.

Is there a config file setting that can be modified to change the min/max AFR values for the dead O2 sensor filter? I find that some times I have a bad value in my table and I go badly rich (10 -11 AFR) but still within range of the O2 sensor. VEAL will not modify the value because of O2 out of range so I end up going through the log manually later to find and correct the value.

Thanks!
Steve Hauer
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1977 BMW 320i with MAF, COP, IAC, Sequential fuel and spark, MS3 knock sensing
MS3 / MS3X / V3 mainboard, MS3 V1.5 a4
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Re: VEAL - How to modify O2 out of range limits?

Post by LT401Vette »

You can not modify the range in a file, it is determined dynamically. In other words the min AFR is the lowest value seen, the max is the highest value. So if the lowest AFR you have seen since the start of the session is 10.5:1 that is considered out of range, but 10.6:1 is not. If you then go to 10.4:1, not 10.5:1 is considered valid.


At least that is how it used to work... In more recent releases there was a hysteresis added of 0.3, So with that if your lowest AFR was 10.5:1, now everything under 10.8:1 is considered out of range.
This has been causing some issues and is now handled differently for the next release, no hysteresis and monitors the O2 for movement.

Also a couple betas back had a bug in this to so it was reading out of range quite often when it shouldn't. If you are on one of those, you would want to update.

You can disable the O2 out of range filter by editing the VeAnalyzeMap for your firmware. Comment out the deadO2 filter.
Phil Tobin
EFI Analytics, helping to simplify EFI
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Supporting all MegaSquirt versions and firmwares.
http://www.TunerStudio.com
http://www.efiAnalytics.com/MegaLogViewer/
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Re: VEAL - How to modify O2 out of range limits?

Post by shauer »

Thanks Phil,

I'm running the latest beta version of TS.

I really don't follow your logic on this filter and I am confused about your explanation.

The min AFR is based on the lowest value seen? What if the lowest value has not been seen yet because I have not got to that part of the VE table yet? That would mean that the initial reaction is to always declare the AFR out of range each time a lower AFR is measured? I must be missing something or not understanding your explanation because I cannot see how this would work.

It would seam to me that every time a lower AFR is measured the initial reading would be declared out of range which is a problem if the lower value is only hit once or twice in a run and you don't get enough valid samples to allow VEAL to make a correction.

I'm not trying to be overly critical but this just confuses me. What I experience is that I normally run between about 12 and 16. I sometimes get into a bad spot on my tune and see an AFR of something like 11 but it is declared out of range. I guess this could make sense now based on your explanation of the algorithm.

I guess I will disable the filter and see how things run although I really like the safety of not having VEAL go nuts if my O2 sensor dies (which has happened to me in the past).

Any chance of allowing us a way to set hard limits for min/max?

Thanks again for the explanation.
Steve Hauer
http://www.77e21.info
1977 BMW 320i with MAF, COP, IAC, Sequential fuel and spark, MS3 knock sensing
MS3 / MS3X / V3 mainboard, MS3 V1.5 a4
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Re: VEAL - How to modify O2 out of range limits?

Post by LT401Vette »

I should add that data in the normal running zone is not filtered if the signal is active.
The default dead O2 filter really must be dynamic as WB sensor ranges vary considerably.
If your running at 30 reads / sec, those limits move out quite fast. You loose VERY little data during calibration. The .3 hysteresis has caused more data to get filtered.
I would not want VEAL to be making much in the way of tuning decisions based a single AFR read...

You can put hard limits with a simple custom filter.

comment out the deadO2 filter and add a custom filter:

afr < 10.5 || afr > 19

Make those upper and lower limits what ever you want as your hard points.
Phil Tobin
EFI Analytics, helping to simplify EFI
Next Generation tuning software.
Supporting all MegaSquirt versions and firmwares.
http://www.TunerStudio.com
http://www.efiAnalytics.com/MegaLogViewer/
Support the firmware running your engine:
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Vanhoe
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Re: VEAL - How to modify O2 out of range limits?

Post by Vanhoe »

Hello

I'm having the same problem , O2 out of range at a first attempt to map the engine.
So the values are far from good in the VE table.

Can you explain a bit more about editing the filter?
Where you do this and how?

Kind regards

Ivan
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Re: VEAL - How to modify O2 out of range limits?

Post by LT401Vette »

Vanhoe wrote:Hello

I'm having the same problem , O2 out of range at a first attempt to map the engine.
So the values are far from good in the VE table.

Can you explain a bit more about editing the filter?
Where you do this and how?

Kind regards

Ivan
What firmware are you using?
Phil Tobin
EFI Analytics, helping to simplify EFI
Next Generation tuning software.
Supporting all MegaSquirt versions and firmwares.
http://www.TunerStudio.com
http://www.efiAnalytics.com/MegaLogViewer/
Support the firmware running your engine:
http://www.msextra.com/doc/donations.html
Vanhoe
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Re: VEAL - How to modify O2 out of range limits?

Post by Vanhoe »

Firmware 29y somthing need to check to night.
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Re: VEAL - How to modify O2 out of range limits?

Post by LT401Vette »

Make sure your Wideband is actually working. There is generally a problem if it stays railed out.

However, if it does seem to be working and it is just in an area where the tune is so far off...

Drop the attached custom.ini into the folder:
[YourTunerStudioProject/projectCfg/

It will disable the dead wideband filter on MS1 Extra
Phil Tobin
EFI Analytics, helping to simplify EFI
Next Generation tuning software.
Supporting all MegaSquirt versions and firmwares.
http://www.TunerStudio.com
http://www.efiAnalytics.com/MegaLogViewer/
Support the firmware running your engine:
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Vanhoe
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Re: VEAL - How to modify O2 out of range limits?

Post by Vanhoe »

The sensor seams to work fine , in the gauge it is moving between 13 and 15

Ok I've dropped the custom.ini file so next time I open the project it will disable the filter.

Thanks
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Re: VEAL - How to modify O2 out of range limits?

Post by rrrobert »

Phil is it possible to stop the filter on my ms2/ extra ecu ? i am seeing my autotune switch off adjustments in the lean cruise areas and the yellow filter lights comes on . i have been puzzling why those cells would not auto adjust , and now i know !.


regards
robert.
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Re: VEAL - How to modify O2 out of range limits?

Post by LT401Vette »

rrrobert wrote:Phil is it possible to stop the filter on my ms2/ extra ecu ? i am seeing my autotune switch off adjustments in the lean cruise areas and the yellow filter lights comes on . i have been puzzling why those cells would not auto adjust , and now i know !.


regards
robert.
When the Yellow comes on, does it say "O2 Out of Range" or "Calibrating O2"?
Normally this should only come on briefly early in the session. If it is on hard, there is generally something wrong with your Wideband or wiring, or your tune is really off enough to consistently rail out the Wideband
Phil Tobin
EFI Analytics, helping to simplify EFI
Next Generation tuning software.
Supporting all MegaSquirt versions and firmwares.
http://www.TunerStudio.com
http://www.efiAnalytics.com/MegaLogViewer/
Support the firmware running your engine:
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Re: VEAL - How to modify O2 out of range limits?

Post by rrrobert »

out of range ,,, i have found that if i manually modify the numbers , i can keep it from going out of range , i never realised this was a thing , i assumed that if it went lean ,say ,above 18:1 it would simply richen up until it got to a suitable reading ....now i know it does this is solves my confusion .
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Re: VEAL - How to modify O2 out of range limits?

Post by LT401Vette »

rrrobert wrote:out of range ,,, i have found that if i manually modify the numbers , i can keep it from going out of range , i never realised this was a thing , i assumed that if it went lean ,say ,above 18:1 it would simply richen up until it got to a suitable reading ....now i know it does this is solves my confusion .
What numbers did you modify? You ca really only turn it off or turn it on by editing a custom.ini

There are no hard limits, it is adaptive. The only time it will go hard on is if you are so far off, that your WB is railed.
Where I have seen that happen is with some of the WB's that rail out at 16:1 or 16.5:1. That isn't too hard to hit.
Phil Tobin
EFI Analytics, helping to simplify EFI
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Supporting all MegaSquirt versions and firmwares.
http://www.TunerStudio.com
http://www.efiAnalytics.com/MegaLogViewer/
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Re: VEAL - How to modify O2 out of range limits?

Post by rrrobert »

ah , i mean change the ve table numbers , eg , at 45 kpa and 3500 rpm going from ,say, 68 to 115 ,to bring it into a readable situation .

I had assumed that , if the mix was far out , instead of going "out of limit " and not responding ,it would simply keep richening up until it read something . that's why i was interested in the possibilty of turning that filter off ?

Ps what does "rail "mean ?


refards
robert
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Re: VEAL - How to modify O2 out of range limits?

Post by LT401Vette »

Ok...
Railed out means something is at the end of the limit. It is reading as far as it can go in one direction.
Phil Tobin
EFI Analytics, helping to simplify EFI
Next Generation tuning software.
Supporting all MegaSquirt versions and firmwares.
http://www.TunerStudio.com
http://www.efiAnalytics.com/MegaLogViewer/
Support the firmware running your engine:
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Re: VEAL - How to modify O2 out of range limits?

Post by rrrobert »

Gotcha , thanks Phil .:)
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Re: VEAL - How to modify O2 out of range limits?

Post by vw_chuck »

Phil your hysteresis should go the other way. If it sees 11.5 it should be allowed to go down to 11.2 for a limit not leaner.
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