USB and Wireless

For discussion of Phil Tobin's Tuner Studio software (Only about the tuning software itself, not about how to tune or firmware features)

Moderator: LT401Vette

sedd
Experienced MS/Extra'er
Posts: 307
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:55 pm

USB and Wireless

Post by sedd »

I see an option for USB and Wireless for the Connection tab and drop down options. I didn't find anything in the manuals about this, so I am posting to see what this is for. I am interested in the wireless method to connect my laptop and other devices.

My son and I found a couple of applications available. Shadow Dash MS and Mobisquirt. I am curious why each of these appears to suggest that I need the RS232 dongle for Bluetooth. I am curious why a USB dongle work that provided Bluetooth capability?

Anyone using either of these applications for MS3? I like the idea of monitoring and recording data via smaller device. I would still tune using my computer.

I presently use the USB output of the MS3 to cable to my computer. Could I simply connect a USB dongle to the end of that cable?

If I must use the RS232 can I leave the USB cable attached and simply not use it?
1970 Chevelle, 540 big block, AFR heads, headers, mild cam
MS3 release 1.4.0, sequential fuel, LS2 coil per plug
Tuner Studio MS V3.0.05
grom_e30
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 4451
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:44 pm
Location: UK

Re: USB and Wireless

Post by grom_e30 »

the usb and wireless tab is used to select what driver you are using to talk to the ecu, if you had a bluetooth-rs232 or wif-rs232 adapter connected to the ecu you would use these settings. there are no options that allow you to plug a wireless adapter into the ecu via the usb though.

my laptop and phone both have internal bt that i use with shadow dash and msdroid on the phone and tuner studio on my laptop for coms with a rs232-bt adapter pluged in to the ecu, and i still have the usb connected at the ecu end and can use that to plug in to the computer when needed.

you can only use 1 connection method at a time though so if im using the bluetooth i dont plug the usb in to anything at the computer end, and if i want to use the usb i unplug the bt-rs232 adapter from the ecu serial cable.
1990 bmw 320i daily driver with m20b25 ms3 sequential fuel, 380cc injectors, d585 coil near plug, home made cam sync, launch control, fan control, vss, homebrew egt logging what's next????
LT401Vette
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 12697
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2005 8:07 am
Location: Moorseville, NC
Contact:

Re: USB and Wireless

Post by LT401Vette »

The driver selection in 2.6 is in a transient stage and somewhat confusing....
There are 3 different RS232 drivers to choose from.
When for Driver your select "RS232 Serial (Default)" - That is the legacy Comms framework that has been in TS for years that is coupled to RXTX.

Selecting what is termed "USB and Wireless" is actually the new communication framework that has pluggable Connection Types.
Hence there are 2 RS232 selections under that that use the new Driver framework.
"RS232 Serial" -This is The new Framework using RXTX like the original/
"RS232 Serial interface (JSSC)" this is the new Framework using JSSC instead of RXTX

Then there is:
"FTDI - D2XX driver" - this is FTDI D2XX on the new Framework. D2XX is an alternative driver for FTDI based Serial to USB chips like used in the MS3. This driver allows bypassing the Vitual Comms layer and gives the application greater control over comms timings and lower overhead. You will generally get better data rates using this driver.
"TCP/IP - WiFi driver" - This is again on the new framework and for using with with a 802.11 to RS232 adapter or if you want over the internet if you wish with a 802.11 to RS232 adapter attached on the other end and exposed to the internet.

This is now different in the non-public alpha code.
The Default RS232 driver was intended to be deprecated and sunset, but as COMMs problems are 1 of the leading difficultly people have, I was not comfortable at the time of the 2.6 release that it has had sufficient testing.
In the code for the next major release RXTX has been fully depricated, so there is just a Connection Type selector.

I am also looking at adding a native Bluetooth Connection Type to bypass Virtual Comms when using Bluetooth.
Phil Tobin
EFI Analytics, helping to simplify EFI
Next Generation tuning software.
Supporting all MegaSquirt versions and firmwares.
http://www.TunerStudio.com
http://www.efiAnalytics.com/MegaLogViewer/
Support the firmware running your engine:
http://www.msextra.com/doc/donations.html
sedd
Experienced MS/Extra'er
Posts: 307
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:55 pm

Re: USB and Wireless

Post by sedd »

thanks for info. I think I understand.

Since the Bluetooth version seems to be already tested I will likely go that route. EFI Connection dongle and program.

I am curious, is there likely to be a significant advantage to the wireless 802.11 versus bluetooth? Any speed or programming advantage? It appears a person can get dongles for an RS232 (output from MS3 controller) to Bluetooth or RS232 to 802.11. Will wireless eventually be the way to go?
1970 Chevelle, 540 big block, AFR heads, headers, mild cam
MS3 release 1.4.0, sequential fuel, LS2 coil per plug
Tuner Studio MS V3.0.05
LT401Vette
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 12697
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2005 8:07 am
Location: Moorseville, NC
Contact:

Re: USB and Wireless

Post by LT401Vette »

I would prefer WiFi just because it the Driver is the cleanest implementation with no 3rd party dependencies. It works very good.

But I still haven't found an RS232 to 802.11 adapter that deals well with our protocol. They seem to have intermittent pauses. At first I thought that might be the nature of TCP/IP, but I have set up a PC to be an RS232 to 802.11 adapter over the office network with standard network traffic, it all works nice and smooth.

The Adapters have improved with new firmware releases and I have a new test unit coming, so WiFi may well be the good route at some point.
Phil Tobin
EFI Analytics, helping to simplify EFI
Next Generation tuning software.
Supporting all MegaSquirt versions and firmwares.
http://www.TunerStudio.com
http://www.efiAnalytics.com/MegaLogViewer/
Support the firmware running your engine:
http://www.msextra.com/doc/donations.html
arran
Master MS/Extra'er
Posts: 617
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:34 am
Location: Brisbane Australia
Contact:

Re: USB and Wireless

Post by arran »

Hi, I am interested in how the WiFi connectivity is performing with Tuner Studio of late.

I have an android car stereo that only has WiFi. It is sitting on the workbench because I have not been able to make Bluetooth work with it properly. I don't want to be swapping dongles on my ECU so if WiFi is working for tuner studio I might purchase a serial WiFi dongle to replace my existing Bluetooth dongle (that has been very reliable).

The item that looks suitable I have my eye on is

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/RS232-RS-232 ... 1381886021

It accepts power on pin 9 so would be a neat install, like my existing Bluetooth dongle. I would be setting it to work point to point, obviously so no base station is needed.
RX7 Series 2 13B Turbo. Megasquirt 3 with 3X Expander and V3 CPU. Firmware 1.4.1
Knock module, twin EGT, real time clock, WBO2, full sequential fuel and spark
http://web.aanet.com.au/arran
piledriver
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 1679
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:24 am
Location: Van Alstyne, Texas

Re: USB and Wireless

Post by piledriver »

There is also an interesting board that is probably (internal module) related, for a very good price
http://www.ebay.com/itm/USR-WIFI232-2-E ... 35e32969bc

Is the data rate higher on the wifi links? the BT seems solid as a rock set at at 10-15 Hz, set any higher it tends to drop out randomly.

If Wifi was faster it might be worth it once the boogz have been worked out.

I find it better to power the BT off a USB port or something so you don't disconnect constantly when trying to log cranking setup etc.
Always doing things the hard way, MS2 sequential w/ v1.01 mainboard, LS2 coils. 80 mile/day commuter status.
LT401Vette
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 12697
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2005 8:07 am
Location: Moorseville, NC
Contact:

Re: USB and Wireless

Post by LT401Vette »

Is the data rate higher on the wifi links? the BT seems solid as a rock set at at 10-15 Hz, set any higher it tends to drop out randomly.
The best I have seen with WiFi adapters is comparable to bluetooth, but so far they mostly have a random pauses of 300-1500ms... So that causes trouble. They are getting better, eventually I think it will be a good solution.

One we tested recently had no pauses, but held a steady 5 rec/sec :?

When using a PC as a WiFi to RS232 Adapter then the data rates are much better than Bluetooth, so that shows the potential.
Phil Tobin
EFI Analytics, helping to simplify EFI
Next Generation tuning software.
Supporting all MegaSquirt versions and firmwares.
http://www.TunerStudio.com
http://www.efiAnalytics.com/MegaLogViewer/
Support the firmware running your engine:
http://www.msextra.com/doc/donations.html
arran
Master MS/Extra'er
Posts: 617
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:34 am
Location: Brisbane Australia
Contact:

Re: USB and Wireless

Post by arran »

I just purchased the WiFi serial dongle i reference above

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/RS232-RS-232 ... 1381886021

See how it goes.

My Bluetooth dongle is connecting at 15 reads a second. That is the default setting i think. It has been very reliable. It does not have any problems holding a connection through an engine start
RX7 Series 2 13B Turbo. Megasquirt 3 with 3X Expander and V3 CPU. Firmware 1.4.1
Knock module, twin EGT, real time clock, WBO2, full sequential fuel and spark
http://web.aanet.com.au/arran
piledriver
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 1679
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:24 am
Location: Van Alstyne, Texas

Re: USB and Wireless

Post by piledriver »

On VWs you have to cycle the ignition swicth back through "off" to engage the starter again.
Always doing things the hard way, MS2 sequential w/ v1.01 mainboard, LS2 coils. 80 mile/day commuter status.
hiltonlo05
Experienced MS/Extra'er
Posts: 204
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2015 9:25 pm

Re: USB and Wireless

Post by hiltonlo05 »

LT401Vette wrote:
Is the data rate higher on the wifi links? the BT seems solid as a rock set at at 10-15 Hz, set any higher it tends to drop out randomly.
The best I have seen with WiFi adapters is comparable to bluetooth, but so far they mostly have a random pauses of 300-1500ms... So that causes trouble. They are getting better, eventually I think it will be a good solution.

One we tested recently had no pauses, but held a steady 5 rec/sec :?

When using a PC as a WiFi to RS232 Adapter then the data rates are much better than Bluetooth, so that shows the potential.
Dragging up an old thread, but is wifi becoming more practical for wireless connection or is Bluetooth the way to go?

If Bluetooth is the way to go, will the Bluetooth read rate be sufficient for smooth function of gauges in a dashboard setting? I've read 10-15 times per second, but I'm having a hard time visualizing what that would look like.
LT401Vette
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 12697
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2005 8:07 am
Location: Moorseville, NC
Contact:

Re: USB and Wireless

Post by LT401Vette »

WiFi varies considerably depending on what chipset is used in the WiFi to RS232 adapters. They keep getting better, just most still have some downside.
The Roving Networks modules get slightly better data rates than our bluetooth adapters, but has random pauses of 400-1500 ms depending on the modules firmwares. These pauses are every 1-10 seconds.

Some others I have tried have no pause and are consistent, but have very slow data rate, about 5/s.

Another issue with WiFi, the setup is a bit more complex in that either you need to run the WiFi Adapter in AP mode so it acts as an access point or have a common access point for it to connect to.
A down side to AP mode where it runs as an access point is you either need an additional wifi adapter, or you need to disconnect from whatever access point may be giving you internet access to connect with the WiFi Adapter.

In short, WiFi still shows good potential, but Bluetooth is simpler. Especially with TunerStudio's Bluetooth Direct connection support. Setting up Virtual Com Ports on Windows has commonly been a bit of a PITA, but Bluetooth Direct has been quite reliable.

The data rates you will get over bluetooth will vary depending on what BT Adapter you use and what firmware you are using.
With the EFI Analytics class 1 BT Adapter with an MS3 and "Use High Speed Runtime" enabled, the data rate is typically about 25/s when not data logging, it will fall to 15-20 when data logging. With MS2e the data rate is generally about 20/s. With some other adapters, the data rate will be a good bit slower... An IOGear GBS301 for example is only good for about 10/s.

I find that anything 15/s and up gives pretty good gauge movements. The default data rate in TunerStudio is 15/s, so over bluetooth your gauge response will be as good over bluetooth as it is with real serial using the default settings...
If you want to play around with how the different data rates work, go to:
Communications --> Data Rate
Phil Tobin
EFI Analytics, helping to simplify EFI
Next Generation tuning software.
Supporting all MegaSquirt versions and firmwares.
http://www.TunerStudio.com
http://www.efiAnalytics.com/MegaLogViewer/
Support the firmware running your engine:
http://www.msextra.com/doc/donations.html
hiltonlo05
Experienced MS/Extra'er
Posts: 204
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2015 9:25 pm

Re: USB and Wireless

Post by hiltonlo05 »

LT401Vette wrote:WiFi varies considerably depending on what chipset is used in the WiFi to RS232 adapters. They keep getting better, just most still have some downside.
The Roving Networks modules get slightly better data rates than our bluetooth adapters, but has random pauses of 400-1500 ms depending on the modules firmwares. These pauses are every 1-10 seconds.

Some others I have tried have no pause and are consistent, but have very slow data rate, about 5/s.

Another issue with WiFi, the setup is a bit more complex in that either you need to run the WiFi Adapter in AP mode so it acts as an access point or have a common access point for it to connect to.
A down side to AP mode where it runs as an access point is you either need an additional wifi adapter, or you need to disconnect from whatever access point may be giving you internet access to connect with the WiFi Adapter.

In short, WiFi still shows good potential, but Bluetooth is simpler. Especially with TunerStudio's Bluetooth Direct connection support. Setting up Virtual Com Ports on Windows has commonly been a bit of a PITA, but Bluetooth Direct has been quite reliable.

The data rates you will get over bluetooth will vary depending on what BT Adapter you use and what firmware you are using.
With the EFI Analytics class 1 BT Adapter with an MS3 and "Use High Speed Runtime" enabled, the data rate is typically about 25/s when not data logging, it will fall to 15-20 when data logging. With MS2e the data rate is generally about 20/s. With some other adapters, the data rate will be a good bit slower... An IOGear GBS301 for example is only good for about 10/s.

I find that anything 15/s and up gives pretty good gauge movements. The default data rate in TunerStudio is 15/s, so over bluetooth your gauge response will be as good over bluetooth as it is with real serial using the default settings...
If you want to play around with how the different data rates work, go to:
Communications --> Data Rate
Thanks for the feedback. I'll be buying your Bluetooth interface as we speak, I want one that's been tested and proven.

Second question, main laptop has integral Bluetooth, and I use it for some at home tuning, but my mini laptop that I take on the road and carry with the car does not have internal Bluetooth. So I will be needing to use a Bluetooth dongle in the USB on the mini laptop. Do you have a recommendation or just any name brand adapter will provide sufficient speed for the mini laptops end.
LT401Vette
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 12697
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2005 8:07 am
Location: Moorseville, NC
Contact:

Re: USB and Wireless

Post by LT401Vette »

So I will be needing to use a Bluetooth dongle in the USB on the mini laptop. Do you have a recommendation or just any name brand adapter will provide sufficient speed for the mini laptops end.
The really cheap ones work fine, but I have one large one with an antenna and it does double my range. However, it is sort of in the way compared to the little ones, so I typically just use the little ones.
Phil Tobin
EFI Analytics, helping to simplify EFI
Next Generation tuning software.
Supporting all MegaSquirt versions and firmwares.
http://www.TunerStudio.com
http://www.efiAnalytics.com/MegaLogViewer/
Support the firmware running your engine:
http://www.msextra.com/doc/donations.html
hiltonlo05
Experienced MS/Extra'er
Posts: 204
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2015 9:25 pm

Re: USB and Wireless

Post by hiltonlo05 »

LT401Vette wrote:
So I will be needing to use a Bluetooth dongle in the USB on the mini laptop. Do you have a recommendation or just any name brand adapter will provide sufficient speed for the mini laptops end.
The really cheap ones work fine, but I have one large one with an antenna and it does double my range. However, it is sort of in the way compared to the little ones, so I typically just use the little ones.
Just got the Bluetooth adapter from you Matt. It's awesome, setup and connected with no problems, reads plenty fast, and I can tweak my tune from the living room! I was having problems with the USB port disconnecting from the laptop when driving around with the laptop so wireless will be so much easier.

Thanks again!
db9146
MS/Extra Newbie
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:25 pm

Re: USB and Wireless

Post by db9146 »

What about the use of a BT dongle, one of the 4.0 BT thumb-nail size USB adapters? Has anyone tried one of these to link the MSIII to a laptop or tablet/display?
LT401Vette
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 12697
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2005 8:07 am
Location: Moorseville, NC
Contact:

Re: USB and Wireless

Post by LT401Vette »

db9146 wrote:What about the use of a BT dongle, one of the 4.0 BT thumb-nail size USB adapters? Has anyone tried one of these to link the MSIII to a laptop or tablet/display?
That works on the PC side, but cannot work on the MegaSquirt side as there is no host mode or driver.
Phil Tobin
EFI Analytics, helping to simplify EFI
Next Generation tuning software.
Supporting all MegaSquirt versions and firmwares.
http://www.TunerStudio.com
http://www.efiAnalytics.com/MegaLogViewer/
Support the firmware running your engine:
http://www.msextra.com/doc/donations.html
sedd
Experienced MS/Extra'er
Posts: 307
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:55 pm

Re: USB and Wireless

Post by sedd »

I try to make a post after coming to a solution. Sorry it has taken quite some time for that. I am using the Bluetooth adapter from EFI Connection. So far it works very well. It seems Bluetooth is the way to go per posts above. Only issue is how to best keep it solidly connected to the MS3 box. See below.

I had an issue today making connection after upgrading to the latest Tuner Studio. ver 3.0.05. I had to break the Bluetooth pairing and re-pair it. I don't remember having to do that with other upgrades?

It would be nice to have the Bluetooth built into the board at some point. Maybe it already is? I have not looked at the latest units. I had to rig up some hardware to keep the adapter on the MS3, a bit lame to have to do that. I think I saw some fairly cheap Bluetooth devices that might fit on the board in case the designers can find some room to do so.
1970 Chevelle, 540 big block, AFR heads, headers, mild cam
MS3 release 1.4.0, sequential fuel, LS2 coil per plug
Tuner Studio MS V3.0.05
benckj
Master MS/Extra'er
Posts: 464
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:21 pm

Re: USB and Wireless

Post by benckj »

Seeing this thread prompts me to get my tablet running on Bluetooth. I used it with a direct USB connection before but struggled getting BT to operate for various reasons. Got my BT adapter programmed now and have upgraded TS to 3.0.05 so best give it another go. Wish I had bought the EFI BT adapter when I had the chance as its been a PITA to get another model working.

jim
Toyota MR2 98 3sgte
MSPNP2 with 3.57 mainboard
Innovate WB O2 & soon to be external GM 3 bar MAP
FTDI USB interface on SD Android 5.1 head unit
TD05SL2-18g with external WG
HKS EBC running 17psi boost.
A2W IC with WI 50/50 meth/water
prof315
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 3760
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 3:13 am
Location: Melbourne, FL

Re: USB and Wireless

Post by prof315 »

Reviving this thread yet again. I just picked up a USR WIFI232-610 serial to WIFI converter and I'm not sure I am configuring things correctly. It was fairly cheap on Amazon but didn't come with any documentation. I found most of the info I need on their website ( www.usriot.com) and have successfully connected both my desktop and laptops to the network and accessed the set up software but I cannot get a connection in Tuner Studio.
Linfert Performance/321 Motorsports
SCCA 2019 SM National Champion Crew Chief
SCCA 2023 FP National Champion Tuner/electrical engineer
100s of MS systems built installed and tuned
Support the developers!
Post Reply