Porsche 3.6 60-2 tach, but no spark

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Porsche 3.6 60-2 tach, but no spark

Postby x-faktory » Sat Jul 08, 2017 4:51 pm

Greetings. i am working on a Porsche 964 with 3.6 engine. MS2, 3.57. We are using the 60-2 speed sensor (VR) for tach input and it is working well. For ignition we are using the pin 36 Ignition output to drive the Bosch 124 ignitors (dual igniters/coils.) The dizzy is not providing any input to the ECU and is just being used to distribute the spark from the coils...however, we are not getting any sparkage.

1. How do we verify that the Ignition out is working. Can we measure the voltage output on pin 36? What should it be?
2. It is not clear exactly how to setup the ignition parameters for the configuration. Should this be setup as a Basic trigger with trigger offset at 86 degrees (others have used this offset successfully)
Or should it be setup as a toothed wheel with 60-2 setup and then is the 86 degree BTDC correct
3, the Megasquirt wiring diagram for the Bosch 0 227 100 124 shows a 1K resistor between pins 4&5 of the igniter (if needed) how do I know if it is needed or is it always needed and I need to verify if it is in the circuit or not.
4. Also the ignition setup for the igniter states to use falling edge for Microsquirt , which implies you use Rising edge for Megasquirt......but does not specifically state that.

I've attached a screen shot of the current ignition setup.....it is not an msq...we have not gotten that far yet. I would appreciate an experienced eye on that, with some good recommendations, if possible

regards,
al

PS: I have some experience with these systems, especially using 36-1 cranks and EDIS ignitions. This system seems much simpler...but it is kicking my ass.
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x-faktory
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Re: Porsche 3.6 60-2 tach, but no spark

Postby x-faktory » Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:01 am

How do you verify that the pin 36, Ignition out is working...using a multi-meter?
x-faktory
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Re: Porsche 3.6 60-2 tach, but no spark

Postby Dennis930 » Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:24 am

Change Number of Coils to single coil. This will send the spark signal to both ignition modules together. Also change Skip Pulses to 3. See if that will get the spark output to function. You can only check the spark output signal with an o-scope because the spark signal is only there long enough to charge the coil(i.e. dwell). When the ECU cuts off the 5vdc signal to ignition module that triggers the coil to fire. If you had a Jim-Stim you can check all these outputs before installing the ECU in the car.
Porsche 930 3.0 Slantnose
MS3/MS3X Sequential Injection & Spark, MS Knock, Dual plug, LS2 coils, Siemens 55 lb/hr HiZ injectors, ALM-ADV Wide Band,
Carrera Intake, Extrude honed, Ford 70mm Throttlebody, GTX3071R Turbo
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Re: Porsche 3.6 60-2 tach, but no spark

Postby LeftCoastErik » Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:24 pm

Logging on to subscribe.. Thanks for the suggestion, Dennis. Still doesnt have spark, but I am guessing that config is closer to correct. Another thread seemed to suggest that the bosch igniter on the 964 is triggered by a ground circuit from DME pin1 to Igniter pin5. If so, the MS Squarewave on 36 wouldn't trigger it, correct? But that theory flies in the face of the MS-provided sheet on using the 0 227 100 124 igniter
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Re: Porsche 3.6 60-2 tach, but no spark

Postby Dennis930 » Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:42 am

If you look at the MS2 or MS3 Hardware manuals, it looks like you need to have circuit in place to give a Spark A output, which is a 5vdc logic signal. See paragraph 5.3.1.3. So, pin 36 would not be your output pin. See paragraph 5.3.1.4 of the MS2 V3.57 Hardware manual for wiring schematic. You can wire Spark A (Pad 1) to any unused pin of your choice. I would have 12vdc power to the coils wired through a relay that is triggered by the fuel pump relay because of the spurious spark issue when powered up.
Porsche 930 3.0 Slantnose
MS3/MS3X Sequential Injection & Spark, MS Knock, Dual plug, LS2 coils, Siemens 55 lb/hr HiZ injectors, ALM-ADV Wide Band,
Carrera Intake, Extrude honed, Ford 70mm Throttlebody, GTX3071R Turbo
Dennis930
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Re: Porsche 3.6 60-2 tach, but no spark

Postby x-faktory » Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:37 am

Do not think so. The units that I purchase are already configured for the JS10 output for Bosch 124. I have a call into DIY to discuss the issue and verify setup.....hardware/software. I have use this successfully for EDIS ignitions...which are similar to this application.....

MegaSquirt-II Programmable EFI System PCB3.57 with black case – Assembled Unit Part # MS2357-C
Completely assembled including:
All ‘Basic Components’
PWM Flyback Damping Circuit components
Hall Sensor/Coil(-) and VR Sensor Ignition Trigger Components (jumpered for Hall sensor, optical sensor, points, or fuel only using negative coil input- you can reconfigure for any input you like)
Current Limiting Circuit Components
5 volt ignition output (JS10 jumpered directly to pin 36) for EDIS, Bosch 124, or GM HEI ignition control
etc.

regards,
al
x-faktory
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Re: Porsche 3.6 60-2 tach, but no spark

Postby Dennis930 » Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:20 am

Al,

JS10 is a raw CPU pin and must not be directly connected to anything outside of the
Megasquirt case without a protective circuit. So it would not be directly wired to pin 36. Hopefully DIY will get the problem straight.
Porsche 930 3.0 Slantnose
MS3/MS3X Sequential Injection & Spark, MS Knock, Dual plug, LS2 coils, Siemens 55 lb/hr HiZ injectors, ALM-ADV Wide Band,
Carrera Intake, Extrude honed, Ford 70mm Throttlebody, GTX3071R Turbo
Dennis930
Experienced MS/Extra'er
 
Posts: 174
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2006 6:26 pm
Location: Va. Beach, VA

Re: Porsche 3.6 60-2 tach, but no spark

Postby x-faktory » Tue Jul 11, 2017 8:43 am

Used it many times successfully, to drive EDIS coil controllers......very similar to this circuit, using it to trigger the Bosch igniters/coil controllers. The only unanswered question (that I know of) is related to the wiring diagram for the MS2/Bosch Igniter. I've attached it. It shows a connection between 12V on pin 4 and the trigger input on pin 5....thru a 1K resistor. I do not understand the function of this portion of the circuit and how to determine if the resistor is required. It is currently not hooked up, so hooking it up could be the simple answer to my problem. Any diection/recommendation on the resistor wattage requirements?

Matt, at DIY has provided us with a method of checking the pin 36 output and it appears to be working...so now we have a good tach signal and verified ignition out signal...so all that seems to be in question is the igniter wiring per my comments above. I've asked for clarification regarding the igniter circuit several times without any response directly related to it.

time is of the essence for this application, so any recommendations/insights etc. are appreciated.

regards,
al
Attachments
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x-faktory
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Re: Porsche 3.6 60-2 tach, but no spark

Postby Dennis930 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:05 am

al,

If you have both Bosch igniters wired in parallel, disconnect one of them to see if you get a spark. Just thinking that two igniters may be loading down the MS output. If you have already tried this, maybe try connecting a 12vdc light bulb to pins 1 & 4 of the igniter to see if it will flash (with coil disconnected) to verify the igniter is working. The MS (not Extra) manual talks about needing a pullup resistor if not using the high current output. So the 1K resistor shown may be for an external pullup for the spark output if an internal pullup was not wired.
Porsche 930 3.0 Slantnose
MS3/MS3X Sequential Injection & Spark, MS Knock, Dual plug, LS2 coils, Siemens 55 lb/hr HiZ injectors, ALM-ADV Wide Band,
Carrera Intake, Extrude honed, Ford 70mm Throttlebody, GTX3071R Turbo
Dennis930
Experienced MS/Extra'er
 
Posts: 174
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2006 6:26 pm
Location: Va. Beach, VA


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