Dodge Neon Turbo, Wasted Spark, Bank Fire Injection

Testing and development of Megasquirt 3

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Tjabo
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Re: Dodge Neon Turbo, Wasted Spark, Bank Fire Injection

Post by Tjabo »

I don't know, I think I'm just a dumbass! :cry:

My car runs close to the same with MS3 now as it does with MS2/Extra. Timing at idle is right on the money now. . . . .

I still have the poppity-pop going on now going into boost that wasn't there before (and it's there now with either MS3 or MS2/Extra). I'll put in some new plugs and such, but assuming I can't fix it with that, would you have any idea what I might have messed up on my board by my dumbness? VB921s maybe, or something else? The AFRs look good, and I backed off the onset of the water/methanol injection, but to no avail. Pretty sure it's an ignition thing.

At any rate, this car is now totally driveable on MS3! ! ! ! 8-)

Thad
--'98 Dodge Neon ACR Turbo - MS3 beta test car - Sold
--'97 BMW 540i/6spd - Single Front/Top Mount Turbo 550+ HP - MS3+MS3X V3.0 - Sold but ripping in Vegas
--'97 BMW 328i 5.3 L33/TH400 Swapped drift car - MS3+MS3X V3.0 Full Sequential - Turbos And Radiator In the Trunk 9.6@144 on a 1.55 60ft
Tjabo
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Re: Dodge Neon Turbo, Wasted Spark, Bank Fire Injection

Post by Tjabo »

Okay, I through the plugs back in that I started off the day with just to see what would happen, and voila, all is well! Straight into boost like mad with no poppity-pop. :twisted:

I had a day to devote to getting rolling with this, and at the end of the day MS3 is confirmed for Neon/420a, with the USB connection working great! ! ! I'll be driving this car solely on MS3 from what I can tell at this point--time to put the MS2 in safe keeping.

I guess next is to test out some SDcard logging, and then consider putting in a cam sensor input for sequential injection, huh? That might take me a little while, i don't have any more whole days I can devote to this in the very near future. Plenty of hours here and there though.

Thanks guys!

Thad
--'98 Dodge Neon ACR Turbo - MS3 beta test car - Sold
--'97 BMW 540i/6spd - Single Front/Top Mount Turbo 550+ HP - MS3+MS3X V3.0 - Sold but ripping in Vegas
--'97 BMW 328i 5.3 L33/TH400 Swapped drift car - MS3+MS3X V3.0 Full Sequential - Turbos And Radiator In the Trunk 9.6@144 on a 1.55 60ft
muythaibxr
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Re: Dodge Neon Turbo, Wasted Spark, Bank Fire Injection

Post by muythaibxr »

That's awesome news; glad to hear that you got it worked out!

Ken
Megasquirt is not for use on pollution controlled vehicles. Any advice I give is for off road use only.
Tjabo
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Re: Dodge Neon Turbo, Wasted Spark, Bank Fire Injection

Post by Tjabo »

jsmcortina wrote:This does highlight a good point - that CRITICAL setting is somehow not obvious enough - any thoughts on how to make it clearer?
James
I've been giving this question quite a bit of thought since yesterday, due the the unfortunate possibility that I might not be the only dumbass. :lol: And of course, as you guys have said, that makes this an important part of the Beta testing process.

Although I don't really have any good suggestions about how you communicate the potential problem to users, here are my thoughts:

First of all, I guess I didn't give a lot of thought to some of the settings that were of the type such as this that seemed to be something that should be a straight transfer across from MS2/Extra to MS3 if the build of my board was a conventional "by the book" build, which mine kind of is. It seems that the difference is that there isn't really any standard when you have done things like the Neon crank wheel mods, and added an extra ignition driver circuit.

Second, it's been several years since I built this board, and since then I've only worked on it to add the IAC jumpers from JS0-JS3 or whatever it is. Other than that I've built a JimStim, and a GPIO board/Megashift, and the rest of my brain has gone to my main hobby of training dogs for French Ringsport and Schutzhund, and to my job, which is very technical in a legal sense. In other words, I've gotten way too foggy on the little bit of knowledge I did once have about the construction of my board, because it's been covered up with other stuff. . . .

Which leads me to making a suggestion about how to avoid people messing up essential elements of the MSQ. Ideally I guess, maybe there could be a bit of an interrogatory set of questions that pop up on the initial setup of the MSQ, that would lead a person through some logic about which questions they need to pay close attention to, and which they could pretty much ignore. This would probably start with the question: "If you are carrying over an MSQ from a prior version of MegaSquirt code, click the appropriate box below for that code version." And then maybe it would lead the person through the high priority settings.

Now that I typed all of that though, I think it would be an insane amount of work to write all of that logic, and the code that would follow, and I'd rather have you guys spend your time on stuff that will make our cars run better, rather than stuff like this that will make it more idiot-proof, if that is even possible. So, my other proposal would be to potentially highlight settings that get messed up by people such as the one I messed up, as those come to light, and maybe force people to choose a setting there. As I alluded to above, I just took it for granted that this relatively unfamiliar setting was just a carry-over from my MS2/Extra MSQ.

Well, that's a lot of reading for you guys, and I'm a bit concerned that it may have been a waste of your time, but it summarizes the thoughts I've had on avoiding this issue for others.

Thad
--'98 Dodge Neon ACR Turbo - MS3 beta test car - Sold
--'97 BMW 540i/6spd - Single Front/Top Mount Turbo 550+ HP - MS3+MS3X V3.0 - Sold but ripping in Vegas
--'97 BMW 328i 5.3 L33/TH400 Swapped drift car - MS3+MS3X V3.0 Full Sequential - Turbos And Radiator In the Trunk 9.6@144 on a 1.55 60ft
jsmcortina
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Re: Dodge Neon Turbo, Wasted Spark, Bank Fire Injection

Post by jsmcortina »

You feedback is always appreciated.

What there certainly needs to be is a a clear set of guidelines for each upgrade path.

_Possibly_ lock out the firmware until that one setting has been made, although there are a number of other equally critical settings.

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
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Tjabo
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Re: Dodge Neon Turbo, Wasted Spark, Bank Fire Injection

Post by Tjabo »

Thanks James.

By the way, I've been out trying to work on a couple of items, and getting nowhere fast. . .

I set up the SDcard logging to record on insertion, for a maximum of 30 mins, with 3ms increment, and 64 bit (?) no stream. TS indicates the SD card is in, but nothing seems to be getting recorded. Is there something I missed?

Then I was trying to tune in my start/idle settings a bit, and the stepper doesn't seem to be working as it did with MS2/Extra. It almost seems like smaller numbers equal more open now, but I can't really nail it down, because the idle valve test isn't seeming to be acting quite how I expect it to.

Sorry to be a pest, but if there are a couple of tidbits you could throw out here with a few seconds of typing that would save me hours of pulling my hair out, I'd be very appreciative. In the mean time, I'll go back through the settings again and see if there are any docs I missed or anything.

Thanks!

Thad
--'98 Dodge Neon ACR Turbo - MS3 beta test car - Sold
--'97 BMW 540i/6spd - Single Front/Top Mount Turbo 550+ HP - MS3+MS3X V3.0 - Sold but ripping in Vegas
--'97 BMW 328i 5.3 L33/TH400 Swapped drift car - MS3+MS3X V3.0 Full Sequential - Turbos And Radiator In the Trunk 9.6@144 on a 1.55 60ft
jsmcortina
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Re: Dodge Neon Turbo, Wasted Spark, Bank Fire Injection

Post by jsmcortina »

I have a feeling the code may be deciding there is an error with the SD card.

If you have a spare LED output (e.g. the middle one?) then enable that as the log LED.
Solid = ready
Fast blink = initialising
Medium blink = logging
Occaisional blip = SD error

I'll see if I can try out the stepper on my Capri test car tomorrow. I know it was doing _something_.

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
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Tjabo
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Re: Dodge Neon Turbo, Wasted Spark, Bank Fire Injection

Post by Tjabo »

Excellent James, thanks!

I'm "busy" drinking with my wife at the moment, but at the latest I'll try this in the morning. :lol:

Thad
--'98 Dodge Neon ACR Turbo - MS3 beta test car - Sold
--'97 BMW 540i/6spd - Single Front/Top Mount Turbo 550+ HP - MS3+MS3X V3.0 - Sold but ripping in Vegas
--'97 BMW 328i 5.3 L33/TH400 Swapped drift car - MS3+MS3X V3.0 Full Sequential - Turbos And Radiator In the Trunk 9.6@144 on a 1.55 60ft
Tjabo
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Re: Dodge Neon Turbo, Wasted Spark, Bank Fire Injection

Post by Tjabo »

Alright, at first I got nothing, and then I remembered I need to power cycle. I'm having a hard time getting used to that it seems, but all in due time!

After I power cycled, I got the fast blink that went on for minutes. Since this is a 16meg card, I figured it should be pretty quick to initialize, so I power cycled again. More fast blink. Finally I popped the card out, and the light went solid. . . . :? Put it back in, and back to fast blink.

I tried to datalog some, and got nothing on the card. I'll look around on the site here and see if I can find something I'm missing.

The other thing I messed with a bit more this morning was the IAC. It really seems not to respond to my input changes. It's strange, I think I won't mess with it any more until you've had a chance to take a look.

Thad
--'98 Dodge Neon ACR Turbo - MS3 beta test car - Sold
--'97 BMW 540i/6spd - Single Front/Top Mount Turbo 550+ HP - MS3+MS3X V3.0 - Sold but ripping in Vegas
--'97 BMW 328i 5.3 L33/TH400 Swapped drift car - MS3+MS3X V3.0 Full Sequential - Turbos And Radiator In the Trunk 9.6@144 on a 1.55 60ft
Tjabo
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Re: Dodge Neon Turbo, Wasted Spark, Bank Fire Injection

Post by Tjabo »

After looking around some, two things occur to me:

1) I don't see where anyone else has messed with something tiny like a 16meg card. Maybe the hardware doesn't like it.

2) I set my sampling to 3ms, and my max log length 30 mins. Quite possibly a log of that size can't fit on my card, so the pre-initialization of the file might not even be possible. Even if my antiquated card is acceptable to the hardware.

I'll get back on the JimStim here where testing is a little easier than in the car, and see if I can get a tiny log file size to initialize.

Thad
--'98 Dodge Neon ACR Turbo - MS3 beta test car - Sold
--'97 BMW 540i/6spd - Single Front/Top Mount Turbo 550+ HP - MS3+MS3X V3.0 - Sold but ripping in Vegas
--'97 BMW 328i 5.3 L33/TH400 Swapped drift car - MS3+MS3X V3.0 Full Sequential - Turbos And Radiator In the Trunk 9.6@144 on a 1.55 60ft
racingmini_mtl
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Re: Dodge Neon Turbo, Wasted Spark, Bank Fire Injection

Post by racingmini_mtl »

Tjabo wrote:I set my sampling to 3ms, and my max log length 30 mins. Quite possibly a log of that size can't fit on my card, so the pre-initialization of the file might not even be possible.
That's 38MB with 64 bytes per sample.

Jean
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Tjabo
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Re: Dodge Neon Turbo, Wasted Spark, Bank Fire Injection

Post by Tjabo »

Well, I'm not having a lot of luck today. . .

After setting the time length to 1 minute, and the sample time to 100ms, I still couldn't get anything to happen with that 16meg card which looks to be an SDc card I guess, so I hunted around and found a 2gig SD card in my 6yr old daughter's camera. Much to her dismay I swiped it and put it to use.

Everything looked like it was working about 50% of the time, and the other 50% of the time I saw "SDerror" on the screen, and a slower blink rate on the LED. On the times when I did seemingly get a log, I get nothing readable by MLV, it always says "no time column found" if I try to click the play button (since nothing is showing up, and I'm testing out all of the options).

I don't seem to have any more time related options to drag from the left column to the right column. . .

I'll attach the MSQ in it's most recent form, but please pay no attention to the IAC settings. I was messing around with those like crazy, just to see if anything sensible would happen.

Thad

P.S. I see Jean posted while I was typing, thanks Jean! ! !
--'98 Dodge Neon ACR Turbo - MS3 beta test car - Sold
--'97 BMW 540i/6spd - Single Front/Top Mount Turbo 550+ HP - MS3+MS3X V3.0 - Sold but ripping in Vegas
--'97 BMW 328i 5.3 L33/TH400 Swapped drift car - MS3+MS3X V3.0 Full Sequential - Turbos And Radiator In the Trunk 9.6@144 on a 1.55 60ft
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Re: Dodge Neon Turbo, Wasted Spark, Bank Fire Injection

Post by jsmcortina »

I'll add some more diagnostics to the next release so we can see where the SD intialisation is falling over.

The logXXXX.ms3 files are not directly readable by MLV as they are a special binary format. First, you need to convert them using TunerStudio - it is on the Datalogging menu. Then it creates a .MSL file that can be read by MLV.
(Where is this documented? oops, only in the heads of me, Ken and Phil..)

Also, the 3ms log interval is possible optimistic - while I was able to achieve it with one of my cards, others seem have have a very long sector write time and so cannot sustain that write rate.

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

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Re: Dodge Neon Turbo, Wasted Spark, Bank Fire Injection

Post by jsmcortina »

Didn't spot the card you are using - isn't 16M an MMC card? These are not supported. They are physically thinner than SD cards and do not latch into the slot correctly.

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
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Tjabo
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Re: Dodge Neon Turbo, Wasted Spark, Bank Fire Injection

Post by Tjabo »

Thanks James,

I'll try doing that conversion on the couple of logs I got that were probably good on the 2gb card I "borrowed". ;)

As for that 16 meg card, my little USB reader thing seems not to like it either, but it isn't very clear about it. It opens up a Windows explorer window, and the light comes on on the reader, but it shows no data. Also, this card does lock in, and is apparently the same thickness, but it's probably at least a couple of years old. Came with a camera in which we now have a 2gb card. Anyway, it's CRAP! Nothing likes it.

If I was to head on down to the local Walmart or whatever to get an SD card for logging, what is the recommended one?

Thanks,

Thad
--'98 Dodge Neon ACR Turbo - MS3 beta test car - Sold
--'97 BMW 540i/6spd - Single Front/Top Mount Turbo 550+ HP - MS3+MS3X V3.0 - Sold but ripping in Vegas
--'97 BMW 328i 5.3 L33/TH400 Swapped drift car - MS3+MS3X V3.0 Full Sequential - Turbos And Radiator In the Trunk 9.6@144 on a 1.55 60ft
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Re: Dodge Neon Turbo, Wasted Spark, Bank Fire Injection

Post by jsmcortina »

I've used a number of cards 1G, 2G, 4G. No particular make.

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
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Tjabo
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Re: Dodge Neon Turbo, Wasted Spark, Bank Fire Injection

Post by Tjabo »

I acquired my daughter's memory card from her camera again to try the conversion process, and from logging on the JimStim, I have success viewing the converted log! The log looks great, for the majority, this has got to be one of the most likely to be appreciated features of MS3. To be able to get some good logs at the drag strip, or at an autocross just by sticking an SD card in the slot is pretty awesome!
--'98 Dodge Neon ACR Turbo - MS3 beta test car - Sold
--'97 BMW 540i/6spd - Single Front/Top Mount Turbo 550+ HP - MS3+MS3X V3.0 - Sold but ripping in Vegas
--'97 BMW 328i 5.3 L33/TH400 Swapped drift car - MS3+MS3X V3.0 Full Sequential - Turbos And Radiator In the Trunk 9.6@144 on a 1.55 60ft
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Re: Dodge Neon Turbo, Wasted Spark, Bank Fire Injection

Post by jsmcortina »

I find it useful too. The super-fast log rates probably capture more data than I need though, so I have been using a slower rate like 20ms. This saves blowing MLV's mind with a huge log. Also I set the time to 20 minutes.

I'll get to writing some docs on the present state of the SD logging this week.

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
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Maglin
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Re: Dodge Neon Turbo, Wasted Spark, Bank Fire Injection

Post by Maglin »

Their are some pretty fast writing SD cards out their. I think they are called Ultra or something like that. Most of them will say they support HDCamcorders as they require a very fast and large write speed.

I can see a fast <3ms capture speed needed in special diagnostics where their is strange noise spike or something causing problems that maybe won't be sampled at a >20ms speed. Just some thoughts.
Jeremiah
93 5.8 LX Mustang - MSIIextra
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Re: Dodge Neon Turbo, Wasted Spark, Bank Fire Injection

Post by jsmcortina »

I haven't written the code to do it yet, but there is no reason why we couldn't set certain parameters and have the code log until this "glitch" occurs and then write out to the card the high speed data that preceded it. We only have limited RAM though, 64k total, so even 1 second would gobble up 1/3 of the RAM which probably isn't a good idea. At the present time we are using less than half of the RAM though.

James
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