MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Testing and development of Megasquirt 3

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jsmcortina
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by jsmcortina »

Do any Megasquirt users have contacts in MSD tech support?

I'd really like to ask them to explain what we are missing here...!

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

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Dookie454
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by Dookie454 »

jsmcortina wrote:Do any Megasquirt users have contacts in MSD tech support?

I'd really like to ask them to explain what we are missing here...!

James
I will try calling them Monday since they arent open until then, I'm dissapointed especially since I've had one MSD Billet opti fail in the past due to rotor screws coming loose, and now two different units act 100% different than each other and the stock opti works fine. I should have just lock-tight the original opti's screws and saved $500 in the process, and I wouldn't be in this situ!

BTW, the stock opti still works perfect on .008 inverted and normal.
MS3X on 2010 Camaro LS3 + Whipple @ 10psi + HPT + AEM 30-0333/0334 WB
MS3 Knock Module + JBPerf Dual VR v2.1 (Removed), didnt play well with LS3 DBW Motor, works for VSS.
OLD: 1997 Chevy Z71 Vortec 350, + BOSCH 0261231036 WB Knock Sensor
OLD: LT1 TA 700hp + MS3X
jsmcortina
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by jsmcortina »

I've looked that the latest comp log some more, specifically "0.008 rising edge inverted".

The sync loss is caused by false triggers on the hi-res channel. Adding a little more capacitance may help, but I've a code mod in mind to validate the polarity of the input signal which might weed out that noise.

As noted by email, batch fire is possible on the MS3X outputs, so no re-wiring is required - just turn off sequential.

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
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Dookie454
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by Dookie454 »

ok, should I add another 1nF in parallel? If you give me a quick range of capacitance I'll throw a bunch of combo's at it.

What are you using to view the composite logs for noise? I could try looking at it myself maybe make this easier.

Also, not sure if it was random or coincidence, but in the process if cleaning up the spaghetti so I could drive it today I removed the high-res coax that I installed for all of this, and started it up on the standard high res PT4 wire and it seemed to run a little worse with more sync loss, but this would kinda fade in and out even with the shielded PT4 so It's hard to say for sure.
MS3X on 2010 Camaro LS3 + Whipple @ 10psi + HPT + AEM 30-0333/0334 WB
MS3 Knock Module + JBPerf Dual VR v2.1 (Removed), didnt play well with LS3 DBW Motor, works for VSS.
OLD: 1997 Chevy Z71 Vortec 350, + BOSCH 0261231036 WB Knock Sensor
OLD: LT1 TA 700hp + MS3X
jsmcortina
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by jsmcortina »

Dookie454 wrote:ok, should I add another 1nF in parallel? If you give me a quick range of capacitance I'll throw a bunch of combo's at it.

What are you using to view the composite logs for noise? I could try looking at it myself maybe make this easier.
I'm using TunerStudio but it needs to be registered. The beta MegaLogViewer can also display the logs although I'm unsure if you need to register (try it.)
lt1log.png
Also, not sure if it was random or coincidence, but in the process if cleaning up the spaghetti so I could drive it today I removed the high-res coax that I installed for all of this, and started it up on the standard high res PT4 wire and it seemed to run a little worse with more sync loss, but this would kinda fade in and out even with the shielded PT4 so It's hard to say for sure.
Where is the 1nF cap presently ?
As a start I'd suggest installing that close to the PT4 input to ground, try a 1k resistor in series with the signal.
i.e. opti -> pullup circuit -> 1k resistor -> 1nF cap.

I think a 10nF cap is probably too large, but could be worth a try after the above wiring.

For code, I hope that the latest is the greatest ? Unless you've found otherwise.

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
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Dookie454
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by Dookie454 »

I registered Tunerstudio and megalogviewer a few days ago. I have the 330ohm resistors (2) on each signal wire to 5v wire from MS3 about 3ft from the opti and about 12ft from the MS3 and one 1nF under the MS3X connector on the PT4 pin 31 wire to ground p1M1? internally on the MS3X board. This has been this way since 0.004, I haven't removed any of it.

I'll cut the PT4 wire and add a 1k resistor.

latest code seems fine to me, I ran it in batch mode with no problems that I'm aware of.
Last edited by Dookie454 on Sun Aug 07, 2011 6:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
MS3X on 2010 Camaro LS3 + Whipple @ 10psi + HPT + AEM 30-0333/0334 WB
MS3 Knock Module + JBPerf Dual VR v2.1 (Removed), didnt play well with LS3 DBW Motor, works for VSS.
OLD: 1997 Chevy Z71 Vortec 350, + BOSCH 0261231036 WB Knock Sensor
OLD: LT1 TA 700hp + MS3X
Dookie454
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by Dookie454 »

Does this pic do you any good? This was using a sound card input and Zelscope. This is the OEM opti. The connectors are different on the MSD opti but if you think it would be worth capturing that one let me know. There are wider low res pulses that float by.
MS3X on 2010 Camaro LS3 + Whipple @ 10psi + HPT + AEM 30-0333/0334 WB
MS3 Knock Module + JBPerf Dual VR v2.1 (Removed), didnt play well with LS3 DBW Motor, works for VSS.
OLD: 1997 Chevy Z71 Vortec 350, + BOSCH 0261231036 WB Knock Sensor
OLD: LT1 TA 700hp + MS3X
jsmcortina
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by jsmcortina »

The low-res pulses vary in width as you know. It would be worth recording that on the car and review the recording (assuming you can record?) when you get a sync loss. i.e. as soon as TS shows a sync loss, stop the scope immediately and scroll back looking for noise.
(Or use Audacity to record and create and send me the mp3.)

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
New users, please read the "Forum Help Page".
Dookie454
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by Dookie454 »

I connected the new MSD the bench setup to get the pics I sent to your email. That one doesnt get any sync, no matter what I do (on car, off car, caps, resistors, etc) not even sync loss but the pictures of the waveform doesn't have abnormalities compared to the OEM opti however the shape of the high res is slightly different.. OEM is more of a peak, the MSD is more of a flat top. I don't know what I'm looking at. I'll see if I can connect it to the car and see what type of recording I can do, not sure if I can even do that.
MS3X on 2010 Camaro LS3 + Whipple @ 10psi + HPT + AEM 30-0333/0334 WB
MS3 Knock Module + JBPerf Dual VR v2.1 (Removed), didnt play well with LS3 DBW Motor, works for VSS.
OLD: 1997 Chevy Z71 Vortec 350, + BOSCH 0261231036 WB Knock Sensor
OLD: LT1 TA 700hp + MS3X
jsmcortina
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by jsmcortina »

It does seem like MSD got the pattern wrong given that it is different to the OEM one. However, as the stock ECU can cope with it... so should we.

I have yet another code idea to try and will get to it later. The present code only triggers on a single edge (rising or falling) of the hi-res signal to minimise the number of interrupts. From the data so far, so stock ECU must be using both edges but probably not caring if it is rising or falling. I should be able to do that too but will have to re-write the decoder and test on my drill setup.

That change _ought_ to allow the OEM and in-car MSD Optis to both work and _may_ also take care of the halfway noise pulse.

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
New users, please read the "Forum Help Page".
Dookie454
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by Dookie454 »

Are you referring to the physical shape, or the length of the low res slot I have in the "zoomed" pictures? The pics of the OEM vs MSD Zoomed I sent may not have captured the same low res signal slot, since there are 4 different size slots (not including the small separator slots) on the wheel I captured whatever I could and sent it. Just wanted to make sure you were aware of that since one of the low res signals looks like it spans one additional high res slot compared to the other picture, like one opti pic captured slot 1 and the other opti picture captured slot 2 that was larger since I had no real way to know what slot I was starring at.

Boy, I think I just confused myself.
MS3X on 2010 Camaro LS3 + Whipple @ 10psi + HPT + AEM 30-0333/0334 WB
MS3 Knock Module + JBPerf Dual VR v2.1 (Removed), didnt play well with LS3 DBW Motor, works for VSS.
OLD: 1997 Chevy Z71 Vortec 350, + BOSCH 0261231036 WB Knock Sensor
OLD: LT1 TA 700hp + MS3X
jsmcortina
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by jsmcortina »

Wait and see...

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
New users, please read the "Forum Help Page".
Dookie454
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by Dookie454 »

I called MSD, got pretty far, asked if I could have some documentation like how it is suppose to work or how the stock PCM is suppose to read this thing so we can program the Megasquirt to read it and was told to call back tomorrow since "JD" the optispark guru was not there today and has all of the information I'd be looking for.

Do you have anything for me to ask? I don't know what I'm talking about and "JD" will probably figure this out pretty quick!
MS3X on 2010 Camaro LS3 + Whipple @ 10psi + HPT + AEM 30-0333/0334 WB
MS3 Knock Module + JBPerf Dual VR v2.1 (Removed), didnt play well with LS3 DBW Motor, works for VSS.
OLD: 1997 Chevy Z71 Vortec 350, + BOSCH 0261231036 WB Knock Sensor
OLD: LT1 TA 700hp + MS3X
jsmcortina
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by jsmcortina »

Copy me on any emails... the main question is why the pattern is different to the stock one.

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
New users, please read the "Forum Help Page".
Dookie454
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by Dookie454 »

will do, plus he said there was a small change between the original MSD and the new MSD. Hopefully these are the guys that designed the wheel/pickup.
MS3X on 2010 Camaro LS3 + Whipple @ 10psi + HPT + AEM 30-0333/0334 WB
MS3 Knock Module + JBPerf Dual VR v2.1 (Removed), didnt play well with LS3 DBW Motor, works for VSS.
OLD: 1997 Chevy Z71 Vortec 350, + BOSCH 0261231036 WB Knock Sensor
OLD: LT1 TA 700hp + MS3X
Dookie454
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by Dookie454 »

I called MSD, and "JD" was extremely rude, he didn't want to hear me say "MSD doesn't work and OEM does", basically he said he doesn't have any documentation on it because the guy that designed the MSD Opti no longer works here. I asked if there was anybody else I could talk to and he actually forwarded me to a nice person, however he was also very slippery and tried to say this is a Megasquirt problem since there is no difference between the MSD's and the OEM but I laughed and asked if he's seeing the pickup and wheel then he says yes they are different since the pickup is Hitachi and the ex MSD employee had to make a new wheel to work with it, but they had to fire the guy since he kept poor documentation and this was a good example.

He then tried to tell me the MSD works with all other aftermarket ECU's, so I told him some or all of the other aftermarket ECU's only work off of the low res signal - aka batch fire, which the Megasquirt does just fine but we are trying to use the high res for sequential... which is acting much different than OEM. Eventually he agreed to try to find something but I think it was just a way to get me off the phone.
MS3X on 2010 Camaro LS3 + Whipple @ 10psi + HPT + AEM 30-0333/0334 WB
MS3 Knock Module + JBPerf Dual VR v2.1 (Removed), didnt play well with LS3 DBW Motor, works for VSS.
OLD: 1997 Chevy Z71 Vortec 350, + BOSCH 0261231036 WB Knock Sensor
OLD: LT1 TA 700hp + MS3X
jsmcortina
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by jsmcortina »

Nice try... it wasn't going to be easy.

Like I said, I've got another code idea up my sleeve, but it may be a few days before I get chance to implement and test it.

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
New users, please read the "Forum Help Page".
Dookie454
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by Dookie454 »

Im thinking the problem with the MSD opti is due to the accuracy of the high and low res falling edge signals. Comparing the OEM opti to the MSD opti I see big differences in the alignment of the falling edge of both signals. When both opti's sync, it seems to happen only on high/low res falling edges that are lined up almost perfectly.

On the OEM opti, they are all almost perfectly lined up, and it syncs perfectly everytime.

On the MSD opti, they are randomly out of line, and if it syncs, it syncs at a point both falling edges are lined up but there are many falling edges that dont line up, and some that are completely not lined up at all. There are other things that look like mis-spaced high res signals that cause sync loss to occur randomly. Of course they look like short or mis-spaced high res pulses but who knows, I suppose they could be an error in the signal, but I doubt it since the OEM opti works fine.

Overall, I'd say there's a big difference in the high and low signal timing of the two opti's.

word doc attached showing pictures.
MS3X on 2010 Camaro LS3 + Whipple @ 10psi + HPT + AEM 30-0333/0334 WB
MS3 Knock Module + JBPerf Dual VR v2.1 (Removed), didnt play well with LS3 DBW Motor, works for VSS.
OLD: 1997 Chevy Z71 Vortec 350, + BOSCH 0261231036 WB Knock Sensor
OLD: LT1 TA 700hp + MS3X
Dookie454
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by Dookie454 »

Dan_383_11 8-19-2011 2.msl
Hey James, can you look at this datalog? I've been having random somewhat low level RPM error, but it's not Sync Loss, it shows up under the "Timing err%", it happened allot at an idle condition today and happened once under WOT so now I'm concerned. I felt a bit of a miss at WOT and did'nt see any knock and saw the blip at about 5000rpm, the AFR went lean due to the fuel cutoff at that instant in time due to the RPM spike. I don't remember it doing it before very much at all thought I never fully floored it until now. Looking though some logs I see a very small amount in all of my logs, this is definately the worst. Ignore another weird thing with coolant temp dropping when I floor it but I think that's because the car is accellerating causing a fast change in air flow across the radiator and the thermostat doesn't have time to react (electric water pump so consistent water flow).

Reading other timing err posts, nobody complains of RPM spike, this is what concerns me since it's actually losing sync, or seems to be based on rpm spikes.

v 1.175 2011-08-06 14:59:48 this is the code before that last code you sent, I call it V5, V6 was the last one.

It's the worst around record 1208. Thanks
MS3X on 2010 Camaro LS3 + Whipple @ 10psi + HPT + AEM 30-0333/0334 WB
MS3 Knock Module + JBPerf Dual VR v2.1 (Removed), didnt play well with LS3 DBW Motor, works for VSS.
OLD: 1997 Chevy Z71 Vortec 350, + BOSCH 0261231036 WB Knock Sensor
OLD: LT1 TA 700hp + MS3X
sportage4x4
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by sportage4x4 »

I'm about to try an LT1 with MS3/X very shortly and I would just like to add something.

The LT1 ecu does not use the 360 slots for anything critical. It is used to calculate engine speed at and just above idle speed so that the idle speed stabilization routine can react quicker than simply waiting for the long slots. It does not compare the edges of the 360 slots with those of the 8 slot track. It does, however, use both edges of the 8 slot windows and can sync sequentially within 180 crank degrees.
1990 Mazda Miata: GM Gen3 V8 swap, 4.8L, custom cam, 2x GT2860R turbos, MS3 + MS3X.
2003 Kia Rio wagon: Mazda B6T/G25MR swap, Miata CAS, IHI RHF5 @ 2bar, LSx truck coils, P&H board, boost control.
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