MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Testing and development of Megasquirt 3

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Dookie454
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by Dookie454 »

Matt Cramer wrote:I think the stock LT1 ignition has some sort of external module that takes a 5 volt signal, so that should be easy to run with the MS3.

When we find ourselves dealing with an engine that doesn't have timing marks (like the new Hemi, which CAN'T even have timing marks from the factory because the damper is not keyed to the crank!), we usually use a piston stop to find TDC, and draw timing marks on it with White-Out, a paint pen, or whatever else we can get to stick to the damper. Forcing the stock PCM to run 10 degrees should work in theory - as long as the timing was correctly set at the factory.
Good info... I'm reading some posts that people are having somewhat hard time getting the piston stop to read right on 0 degrees since they end up a few degrees off when they end up checking with a timing light anyway... plus im not sure how to accurately measure 10 degrees and mark that from 0 without a degree wheel. So I think to myself that if I wire up one coil/plug to the MS3X and leave the stock PCM running the engine at a constant 10 degree's... I could simply switch the timing light pickup from CYL 1 on engine to the single coil I have wired up and compare the line I made on the balancer.. if I need to adjust the MS3 offset to match the stock 10 degree location.. this would at least give me 10 degree's fairly accurately since I need this more than I do 0 anyway. I just dont know if there would be a difference in the MS3X single coil vs 8 coil offset settings since I would use the 8 coil setting to fire the test coil, then switch it back to single coil mode to bypass the stock PCM and fire the stock single coil optispark.

I guess the way I understand it is if the MS3 timing at 10 degrees is matched up to the original system's 10 degrees.. this would be the main objective, and since other newbie timing mark locator people like me are having problems getting it spot on, I'm sure I would have similar problems.
MS3X on 2010 Camaro LS3 + Whipple @ 10psi + HPT + AEM 30-0333/0334 WB
MS3 Knock Module + JBPerf Dual VR v2.1 (Removed), didnt play well with LS3 DBW Motor, works for VSS.
OLD: 1997 Chevy Z71 Vortec 350, + BOSCH 0261231036 WB Knock Sensor
OLD: LT1 TA 700hp + MS3X
jsmcortina
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by jsmcortina »

That sounds like a fair method. Using a single COP ought to work fine.

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
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New users, please read the "Forum Help Page".
Dookie454
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Posts: 344
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by Dookie454 »

jsmcortina wrote:That sounds like a fair method. Using a single COP ought to work fine.

James
Im about ready to start the car with the test COP, it's wired to MS3X Spark output A, and I've set the Ignitions settings according to the manual, however now I'm trying to enter the 5.0-5.5ms for dwell for LS1 coils, and not exactly sure where to put it.

Max Dwell stock = 3.0.. do I change this to 5.5 - 6ms and leave everything else alone?

Number of Coils: COP
Spark Hardware: MS3X
Connected to Spark A, wire 14
Crank Dwell: 6ms
Toyota Multiples: Off
Dwell Type: Standard
Max Dwell: 3ms
Max Spark: 1ms
MS3X on 2010 Camaro LS3 + Whipple @ 10psi + HPT + AEM 30-0333/0334 WB
MS3 Knock Module + JBPerf Dual VR v2.1 (Removed), didnt play well with LS3 DBW Motor, works for VSS.
OLD: 1997 Chevy Z71 Vortec 350, + BOSCH 0261231036 WB Knock Sensor
OLD: LT1 TA 700hp + MS3X
jsmcortina
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by jsmcortina »

Dookie454 wrote:Max Dwell: 3ms
This is the number the manual is suggesting you change.

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
New users, please read the "Forum Help Page".
Dookie454
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by Dookie454 »

Ok, got it running with the COP as reference. Timing from the MS3X is steady much like the stock PCM, except for occasional sync loss (1 every 10-15mins or so).

Timing of the COP vs the Stock PCM are far different than each other, if I understand this correctly, the MS3X is about 90 degrees off?

Using my adjustable timing light:
Stock PCM at 35 degrees, timing light at 0, = the mark on the balancer about 35 degrees before straight up.
Stock PCM at 35 degrees, timing light at 35, = the mark on the balancer is just about straight up. (I think this makes 0 degrees as mark straight up?)

MS3X COP Output A (pin 14):
MS3X locked at 90 degrees, timing light at 0, = the mark on balancer is straight up (double checked this two times)
MS3X locked at 90 degrees, timing light at 35, = the mark on balancer is about 35 clockwise (right) (35 additionally retarded?).
MS3X locked at 35 degrees, timing light at 0, = the mark on balancer is about 35 clockwise (right), only an approximation?)
MS3X locked at 35 degrees, timing light at 35, = the mark on balancer moves another 35 clockwise (right), only an approximation?)

My settings are:
Trigger Angle/Offset: 0
Skip Pulses: 3
Ignition Capture: Rising Edge
Last edited by Dookie454 on Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
MS3X on 2010 Camaro LS3 + Whipple @ 10psi + HPT + AEM 30-0333/0334 WB
MS3 Knock Module + JBPerf Dual VR v2.1 (Removed), didnt play well with LS3 DBW Motor, works for VSS.
OLD: 1997 Chevy Z71 Vortec 350, + BOSCH 0261231036 WB Knock Sensor
OLD: LT1 TA 700hp + MS3X
jsmcortina
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by jsmcortina »

Stand by for a tweaked firmware by email.

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
New users, please read the "Forum Help Page".
Dookie454
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by Dookie454 »

I flashed the new firmware, restored my settings, it was reading good with JimStim, put it in car and now cant connect to it USB or Bluetooth with TS. Never had this happen before.

Rebooted computer, still no go. Im sure it's something I did... I'll keep playing with it.

Edit.. Unplugged the BT, then USB connected... decided to flip the switch on the BT opposite of how it was... and it CONNECTS. Putting tape over this switch...
Last edited by Dookie454 on Sat Jan 07, 2012 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
MS3X on 2010 Camaro LS3 + Whipple @ 10psi + HPT + AEM 30-0333/0334 WB
MS3 Knock Module + JBPerf Dual VR v2.1 (Removed), didnt play well with LS3 DBW Motor, works for VSS.
OLD: 1997 Chevy Z71 Vortec 350, + BOSCH 0261231036 WB Knock Sensor
OLD: LT1 TA 700hp + MS3X
jsmcortina
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by jsmcortina »

That's odd. Maybe try reflashing to the previous version using the boot jumper.

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
New users, please read the "Forum Help Page".
Dookie454
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Posts: 344
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by Dookie454 »

I must have hit the switch on the bluetooth adapter.. it was forward closest to the MS3, I moved it away and things returns to normal.

Update with the timing... it appears to be right on with the stock timing!! The mark looks exactly the same to me with MS3X locked at 35 degrees (same as the stock PCM is at when idling)

I ran it for only a 3-4mins and I saw 0 sync loss.. but I noticed the timing light skip a few pulses.. and one time the RPM dipped a bit.. like it does when there is sync loss. I guess that will be next, after it runs with MS3X spark.

So, do you think it's safe to run Tacho Output to the white wire of my MSD box and switch spark hardware to Single Coil.. and see if it will run on MS3X spark through Opti?
MS3X on 2010 Camaro LS3 + Whipple @ 10psi + HPT + AEM 30-0333/0334 WB
MS3 Knock Module + JBPerf Dual VR v2.1 (Removed), didnt play well with LS3 DBW Motor, works for VSS.
OLD: 1997 Chevy Z71 Vortec 350, + BOSCH 0261231036 WB Knock Sensor
OLD: LT1 TA 700hp + MS3X
jsmcortina
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by jsmcortina »

Phew, glad to hear it is running again and good that the timing appears correct.

On the sync-loss, I'll put some thought into adding a bit more debug data to try to understand what is going on. You could try the sync-loss composite logger and see if that shows anything useful.

I can't advise what is "safe" for you, but it sounds like you've done some good checking and if it were my car I'd try running with MS3 spark control.

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
New users, please read the "Forum Help Page".
Dookie454
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by Dookie454 »

Got it running great!!! Fired right up using MS3X for full sequential fuel and spark with Tacho connected to the white MSD wire though the MSD problem Optispark...

For the first time since I installed the MS3 in batch fire mode... all of the slight missfire/slight backfiring I had when free revving at ~1900 rpms are gone. A bit of history on this was when I switched to MS3 fuel only in batch fire I had a constant somewhat random slight missfire/backfire around 1900rpm... I didn't have this when it was stock PCM full sequential, so figured it was related to batch fire/injectors not firing at the optimal time.

This problem continued all the way up until this last timing update that fixed the spark being 90 degrees off... I'm thinking the spark 90 degrees off also threw the injector timing out by 90?

I had some sync loss with no noise filtering in batch fire mode, and some noise filtering completely fixed that. Right now I'm back to no noise filtering.
MS3X on 2010 Camaro LS3 + Whipple @ 10psi + HPT + AEM 30-0333/0334 WB
MS3 Knock Module + JBPerf Dual VR v2.1 (Removed), didnt play well with LS3 DBW Motor, works for VSS.
OLD: 1997 Chevy Z71 Vortec 350, + BOSCH 0261231036 WB Knock Sensor
OLD: LT1 TA 700hp + MS3X
jsmcortina
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by jsmcortina »

Nice!
Do you have all eight injectors wired up individually to the MS3X outputs? If so, you should be able to enable Sequential fuel now too.

James

EDIT: However, before we rejoice and claim problem solved... need to get some more runtime on the engine.
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
New users, please read the "Forum Help Page".
Dookie454
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by Dookie454 »

I originally wired the 8 MS3X injector outputs to the injectors (using AEM Peak+Hold box) before I knew the MSD Opti would cause all these problems, but then ran batch fire until recent.

I turned on sequential fuel the moment you sent the first working MSD opti firmware. At least I think it's on:
Main Fuel Outputs: MS3X Fuel
Sequential On: Fully Sequential
End Of Squirt

It runs like it's on... runs better than OEM at least not moving! ha

Maybe I'll see if I can drive it tomorrow... I'm also in the middle of a meth injection install and speedo wiring.. neither are done and wires are everywhere.
MS3X on 2010 Camaro LS3 + Whipple @ 10psi + HPT + AEM 30-0333/0334 WB
MS3 Knock Module + JBPerf Dual VR v2.1 (Removed), didnt play well with LS3 DBW Motor, works for VSS.
OLD: 1997 Chevy Z71 Vortec 350, + BOSCH 0261231036 WB Knock Sensor
OLD: LT1 TA 700hp + MS3X
shortbus
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by shortbus »

I am watching this with great interest. I will be cutting my harness soon and installing my MS3 soon.
Dookie454
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by Dookie454 »

jsmcortina wrote: EDIT: However, before we rejoice and claim problem solved... need to get some more runtime on the engine.
well it runs properly when there's no sync loss, nice smooth combustion but there's alot of sync loss, 14 recorded in 24 mins driving, and alot more I think that were not recorded. An example is a point where it's idling along at a red light and in on record get a dip in RPM and a huge amount of Timing Error %... (from -1 to 1 normal to 77%) but no sync loss counter. Under accelleration it will have a 2-3 seconds of smooth power then a few exhaust pops. It seems to happen more as RPM increases with load, but might be occuring at low loads/rpm more than it's counting but low load is hard to tell.

At one point where I let off throttle at 3000rpm, it jumped 4 counts of sync loss.

Let me know what you think about this: Now that I have LS1 truck coils I'm half tempted to swap my stock opti back in there, without a rotor.. just using it for the opti signals. Seems like you had that code pretty rock solid.. at least on the bench. If I do this, I'd also upgrade to the bigblock style front cover and hub which is required for strength to ensure no problems running my supercharger.. so it wouldn't be an out of the question amount of work.
MS3X on 2010 Camaro LS3 + Whipple @ 10psi + HPT + AEM 30-0333/0334 WB
MS3 Knock Module + JBPerf Dual VR v2.1 (Removed), didnt play well with LS3 DBW Motor, works for VSS.
OLD: 1997 Chevy Z71 Vortec 350, + BOSCH 0261231036 WB Knock Sensor
OLD: LT1 TA 700hp + MS3X
Dookie454
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Posts: 344
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:18 pm

Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by Dookie454 »

I decided to connect the stock opti on the bench.. and the lastest MSD Opti firmware cuts out on the stock opti at about 4900 rpm.

I rolled back to an older firmware that worked ok on the stock opti last time I bench tested it.. and that firmware works good on the stock opti.. with no other changes, it breaks up now mostly after 7000+rpm somewhat randomly like it did before, but the blips from 500-7000+rpm seem to work good.

I also decided to run it at a constant 6500rpm, I noticed wiggling the wires occasionally causes sync loss so soldering helps that.. maybe I'll let it run for awhile and different RPM's and see how it does.. I've only done quick RPM swings to different RPM's.

Edit: The Stock Alpha 17 seems to work good to about 8000rpm... I'll keep playing with it on the bench, let it run for a while see just how good it is since I'm contemplating installing the stock opti back on the car.
MS3X on 2010 Camaro LS3 + Whipple @ 10psi + HPT + AEM 30-0333/0334 WB
MS3 Knock Module + JBPerf Dual VR v2.1 (Removed), didnt play well with LS3 DBW Motor, works for VSS.
OLD: 1997 Chevy Z71 Vortec 350, + BOSCH 0261231036 WB Knock Sensor
OLD: LT1 TA 700hp + MS3X
jsmcortina
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by jsmcortina »

The new code appears to be working ok on Nissan RB25. The wheel concept is much the same as Opti, so it ought to be able to work here too.

I'll see if I can figure out a way to log more diagnostics about why the code is losing sync.
It is possible that I picked the wrong number of slots so the +/-1 tolerance is offset by 1.

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
New users, please read the "Forum Help Page".
Dookie454
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Posts: 344
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:18 pm

Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by Dookie454 »

jsmcortina wrote:The new code appears to be working ok on Nissan RB25. The wheel concept is much the same as Opti, so it ought to be able to work here too.

I'll see if I can figure out a way to log more diagnostics about why the code is losing sync.
It is possible that I picked the wrong number of slots so the +/-1 tolerance is offset by 1.

James
In regards to the latest code you sent "$Id: ms3.ini,v 1.227 2012-01-14 13:11:26 jsmcortina Exp $", On the bench (stock opti spun by dc motor) I can run clean to 11,990rpm on the stock opti.. no sync loss, anywhere in 20mins of random free revving.

Alpha 17 (the last "best" code) ran to about 8000rpm with very few, but apparent sync loss.

I sent you an email response with a video showing the code you sent that seemed perfect except two weird sync loss patterns, and since then I ground the opti body... now of this weird sync loss went away. Going on 45 mins of 900-11,800rpm, and 0 sync loss. In the past I would only crank to ~7000rpm a few times and consider that working, but now can hold it there without problems!

I might just let it run at 2010rpm while I take a nap and see what happens.

Next problem I have is the coils... putting 12v to the 8 LS2 coils wired to the MS3X throws massive sync errors.... wondering if the same problem will exist "ON CAR" with the stock LT1/Opti coil? I do not have caps and I need a more powerful power supply for the bench testing.
MS3X on 2010 Camaro LS3 + Whipple @ 10psi + HPT + AEM 30-0333/0334 WB
MS3 Knock Module + JBPerf Dual VR v2.1 (Removed), didnt play well with LS3 DBW Motor, works for VSS.
OLD: 1997 Chevy Z71 Vortec 350, + BOSCH 0261231036 WB Knock Sensor
OLD: LT1 TA 700hp + MS3X
jsmcortina
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by jsmcortina »

It is also possible that the test-rig wiring is picking up the spark energy and injecting it into the Megasquirt. I've had it in testing before where a coil that was 1ft away from my laptop started making it do strange things.

For bench testing coils I always use a (fused!) car battery and good ground straps on the plug threads.

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
New users, please read the "Forum Help Page".
Dookie454
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Posts: 344
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:18 pm

Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by Dookie454 »

jsmcortina wrote:It is also possible that the test-rig wiring is picking up the spark energy and injecting it into the Megasquirt. I've had it in testing before where a coil that was 1ft away from my laptop started making it do strange things.

For bench testing coils I always use a (fused!) car battery and good ground straps on the plug threads.

James

I do have a small lawn mower battery, I'll have to try something larger.

I let the stock opti spin at about 2200rpm for 5hrs overnight and no sync loss!! So far I cant create sync loss... unless I go higher than 11,990.

That change you made really made a difference. I'll try it on the car a bit later.

This code is making weird error's in Tunerstudio upon startup every time... I get an error and get a comparison table showing all 0's.... so I hit Send Tune to contoller, and then have to restart TS.. and then it works. This happens every time I start TS after installing this firmware.
MS3X on 2010 Camaro LS3 + Whipple @ 10psi + HPT + AEM 30-0333/0334 WB
MS3 Knock Module + JBPerf Dual VR v2.1 (Removed), didnt play well with LS3 DBW Motor, works for VSS.
OLD: 1997 Chevy Z71 Vortec 350, + BOSCH 0261231036 WB Knock Sensor
OLD: LT1 TA 700hp + MS3X
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