MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Testing and development of Megasquirt 3

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jsmcortina
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by jsmcortina »

That's an intermediate dev code I sent. There's some settings and such need cleaning up before it is ready for the next alpha.

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

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Dookie454
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by Dookie454 »

This version fixed an analog input problem I noticed quit working since Alpha 17....

Started the car with MSD Opti... I got one sync loss while starting that Im not concerned about, but had another sync loss in the 20mins I ran it. This is probably much better than it was, but I have not driven it yet.

I am considering removing the front of the motor to get to the opti... this way I can bench test it and decide what opti I will go with.

If I do get the MSD Opti off, would there be any benefit in shipping it to you? Not even sure how much that would cost, but if it's cheap then I'd be up for it.
MS3X on 2010 Camaro LS3 + Whipple @ 10psi + HPT + AEM 30-0333/0334 WB
MS3 Knock Module + JBPerf Dual VR v2.1 (Removed), didnt play well with LS3 DBW Motor, works for VSS.
OLD: 1997 Chevy Z71 Vortec 350, + BOSCH 0261231036 WB Knock Sensor
OLD: LT1 TA 700hp + MS3X
Dookie454
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Posts: 344
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:18 pm

Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by Dookie454 »

Been trying to get just two COP's (A+B) running on the bench:

1) Isolated the coil power (batt) from the MS3 power supply, added a large metal ground bar for the plugs and connected to the batt - .. no real change... still massive sync loss
2) added 1uF caps right at the coil 12v to ground wire, no difference
3) reduced the 8 coils to just A+B (two), and put in different resistor plugs, no difference
4) added many grounds between the MS3X, Jimstim, opti, no difference

Then, I ran just coil B... and no sync loss. Changed to coil A and got sync loss back. Swapped the two plug wires, no difference, still it follows the coil. Coil A+B are right next to each other, not sure why A causes problems and B does not. I did not connected the B MS3X wire to the A coil.. just plugged/unplugged each connector.

I will try moving everything farther away from each other, but the two coils are a few feet from anything, but are equal distance from anything so not sure why there's a difference between the two.

So now I'm wondering if this problem is also the reason for the random sync loss with the MSD Opti on the car with the single coil. Should be easy enough to test... just run the stock opti like I do on the bench, with and without the ignition fuse in and compare sync loss over time.

Also wondering if this is Opti-specific, or if it would still happen with the JimStim or VR/hall sensors generating a signal.. not sure how to set that up to test.
MS3X on 2010 Camaro LS3 + Whipple @ 10psi + HPT + AEM 30-0333/0334 WB
MS3 Knock Module + JBPerf Dual VR v2.1 (Removed), didnt play well with LS3 DBW Motor, works for VSS.
OLD: 1997 Chevy Z71 Vortec 350, + BOSCH 0261231036 WB Knock Sensor
OLD: LT1 TA 700hp + MS3X
Dookie454
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Posts: 344
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:18 pm

Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by Dookie454 »

Small update in regards to the sync loss from COP's on the bench..,.

Only MS3X outputs A and C cause problems when connected. I can connect all remaining 6 either individually or all at once and can rev all the way to 11,999 reliably (same as with no coils connected).

I ran outputs A and C to other coils that run fine, and no change... A and C on any coil, running alone or together still cause sync loss. A seems much worse than C. A as caps right by the connector, and C does not.

Could it be something with the timing of the spark messing up the opti signal at those points?

Edit: Changing the timing does affect the amount of sync loss... 0 and -20 degree's have the least amount, and 30 degrees as allot.
Also, reducing the spark dwell from 5.5 to 2 reduces drastically, but then I have weak spark.

So around 30-35 degrees of timing, It is spark A and C causing some type of noise, I assume in the opti signal.
MS3X on 2010 Camaro LS3 + Whipple @ 10psi + HPT + AEM 30-0333/0334 WB
MS3 Knock Module + JBPerf Dual VR v2.1 (Removed), didnt play well with LS3 DBW Motor, works for VSS.
OLD: 1997 Chevy Z71 Vortec 350, + BOSCH 0261231036 WB Knock Sensor
OLD: LT1 TA 700hp + MS3X
Dookie454
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by Dookie454 »

Today I ran the stock opti on the car spun by an electic motor... I ran it for 4hrs at various rpm, idle, 6000rpm... Each for 30-60mins, running the stock single coil, and absolutely no sync loss. This matches my bench setup..

I did activate the injectors for a brief time and they didn't cause a problem... I didn't want to run them too long with no fuel.

Also, I cycled most of the electric components within the except the meth pump and fuel pumps, but at one point both cooling fans came on for prob 20mins due to a SES light and still no sync loss during any of it. I even hit the starter and cranked the engine for awhile with the opti spun at 6000rpm.. And no sync loss :shock:

I re-connected the installed MSD opti... And got the standard ~3 sync loss within 10mins.. Though all was near the end..when engine was warm.

The only differences between the two setups are:
1). Alternator isn't charging (Most of the mS3 wires including low res coax run 2" away from the back of it.. Would this cause a problem?)
2) rotor isn't spinning, spark is going to only 1 plug! But all wires run along bottom of engine.
3). fuel pump isn't running.. I did run the fuel pump for a bit and no sync loss.
4) electric water pump wasn't running.. I could run this and the fuel pump but my batt charger isn't strong enough. Snce the cooling fans and starter do not cause sync loss, I doubt the fuel pump or water pump would.
5) engine was not warm and spinning/shaking.

So, unless I find something else contributing to sync loss, I've started to remove the front of the engine to swap the stock opti back in there. When I get the MSD off.. The first thing I will do is spin it using the electric motor and ensure I get sync loss. If not.. Not sure what I'll do.
MS3X on 2010 Camaro LS3 + Whipple @ 10psi + HPT + AEM 30-0333/0334 WB
MS3 Knock Module + JBPerf Dual VR v2.1 (Removed), didnt play well with LS3 DBW Motor, works for VSS.
OLD: 1997 Chevy Z71 Vortec 350, + BOSCH 0261231036 WB Knock Sensor
OLD: LT1 TA 700hp + MS3X
Dookie454
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by Dookie454 »

Finally removed the installed MSD opti to find the bearing slightly seized, and the rotor rubbing on the housing creating some plastic debris but not that much.

I worked the bearing back and forth and it free'd up pretty quick... And the plastic isn't rubbing anymore not sure why it happended in the first place.

I've been spinning the MSD on the car with an electric motor at various RPM's and still no sync loss. I was hoping to have some sync loss with this as it does when running.. But none yet ~45mins.

I have a spare stock OPTI I'm piecing back together and will run it with just this installed, no supercharger, hopefully I'll get to the bottom of this.

On the bright side, looks like Aplha 18 works with both stock and MSD opti's spinning by electric motor.

Figured I'd link the MSD support site link here too.. I'm extremely disappointed in there support and quality of product.
I'm looking at:
1) Seized bearings
2) Melted rotor due to interference with the inner case
3) Irregular cut Opti-wheel likely causing all of the problems James as accommodated for. Yes, I mean I can visually see irregularities with the 360 ring. Some slots almost have no divider between them.

http://www.msdignition.com/forum/showth ... =Optispark

And to top it off, the first MSD "Pro Billet" I received grenade the rotor just like the stock Opti's from Jegs/Summit. And the rotor problems are only due lack of locktite on either of the two screws (inspection showed one screw loose in the cap, the other holding on to a piece of rotor).
MS3X on 2010 Camaro LS3 + Whipple @ 10psi + HPT + AEM 30-0333/0334 WB
MS3 Knock Module + JBPerf Dual VR v2.1 (Removed), didnt play well with LS3 DBW Motor, works for VSS.
OLD: 1997 Chevy Z71 Vortec 350, + BOSCH 0261231036 WB Knock Sensor
OLD: LT1 TA 700hp + MS3X
Dookie454
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by Dookie454 »

James, is there some noise or smoothing you would recommend? Logging to the SD card @ 150pts/sec I detected one small point of RPM drop and Injector PW drop and no sync loss spinning the OEM opti by electric motor on the car. I played with the settings before and didnt know what to make of it. It's at record 27,000 in the attached file.

I should have this opti running on the car tomorrow to give the first "stock opti" status update, if there's a small amount of smoothing/noise correction like you managed for the batch fire mode, that would be awesome!

Thanks, Dan
MS3X on 2010 Camaro LS3 + Whipple @ 10psi + HPT + AEM 30-0333/0334 WB
MS3 Knock Module + JBPerf Dual VR v2.1 (Removed), didnt play well with LS3 DBW Motor, works for VSS.
OLD: 1997 Chevy Z71 Vortec 350, + BOSCH 0261231036 WB Knock Sensor
OLD: LT1 TA 700hp + MS3X
jsmcortina
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by jsmcortina »

Dookie454 wrote:Figured I'd link the MSD support site link here too.. I'm extremely disappointed in there support and quality of product.
I'm looking at:
1) Seized bearings
2) Melted rotor due to interference with the inner case
3) Irregular cut Opti-wheel likely causing all of the problems James as accommodated for. Yes, I mean I can visually see irregularities with the 360 ring. Some slots almost have no divider between them.
That's poor indeed. No wonder we had problems with the hi-res signal. Most of the other ECUs are unable to do sequential with the Opti, perhaps they gave up trying to decode the erratic aftermarket hi-res signals.

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
New users, please read the "Forum Help Page".
shortbus
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by shortbus »

James, you must be commended for all the work you did. Dookie -- you too! Good work to you both.

I am looking forward to the updates.
Dookie454
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by Dookie454 »

Yea I really appreciate all the work James in putting into this but I have more bad news.

Installed the stock opti on the car for the first time today, started it up and saw what I thought was random heavy sync loss. Looks like it's tied to mainly one cylinder ignition, but cant tell what one. This is much like the COP's were I was having loss only when coil A or C would fire. With the COP setup, I could alter the ignition timing and the sync loss would shift from Coil A, to Coil B, then Coil A would be OK but Coil B could cause sync loss. All of this was done on the stock OPTI, and now this problem seems to have transferred to the car using a single coil, and distributor.

I don't have to run it to see it, it occurs every ignition event during cranking, only when the ignition fuse is installed and spark is active.

I tested the Stock opti by electric motor for 1hr before installing it, and it was great, not sync loss. Now I really dont understand why the stock Opti is so much worse than the MSD opti on the car.

All spark wires are run low, bottom end of the engine, the MS3 wires are all on top of the engine.

Attached are 3 composite logs, each during different stages (running, cranking with no spark or fuel, and cranking with only spark). Also attached is a cranking datalog from Tunerstudio, you can clearly see the pattern.
MS3X on 2010 Camaro LS3 + Whipple @ 10psi + HPT + AEM 30-0333/0334 WB
MS3 Knock Module + JBPerf Dual VR v2.1 (Removed), didnt play well with LS3 DBW Motor, works for VSS.
OLD: 1997 Chevy Z71 Vortec 350, + BOSCH 0261231036 WB Knock Sensor
OLD: LT1 TA 700hp + MS3X
Dookie454
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Posts: 344
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:18 pm

Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by Dookie454 »

Here's a few pictures of the sync loss pattern, looks very consistent where it fails and it appears to fail on one of the low res slots every time, possibly the smallest or the largest of the 4 different shaped slots, but not 100% sure.

Also I dont see all the High res signals, just the ones that occur on a low res flip point. They did show up on the TS screen when capturing.

Two modes captured, one with spark on, and the other with spark off. pic 1 is zoomed out to see the overall pattern, pic 2-3 are zoomed in to see the failure point.

I see the entire pics dont show up. so:
Green = Low Res (Top Line = 1)
Yellow = High Res (Next down = 2)
Blue - Trigger (third down = 3)
Red - Sync Loss (4th down = 4)

With Spark and Sync Loss:
Spark 13 Sync Loss Pattern 1.jpg
Spark 13 Sync Loss Pattern 2.jpg
Spark 13 Sync Loss Pattern 3.jpg
I suppose I should flash back to the pre-beta test code that I ran with the MSD on the car to see if there's any difference.
MS3X on 2010 Camaro LS3 + Whipple @ 10psi + HPT + AEM 30-0333/0334 WB
MS3 Knock Module + JBPerf Dual VR v2.1 (Removed), didnt play well with LS3 DBW Motor, works for VSS.
OLD: 1997 Chevy Z71 Vortec 350, + BOSCH 0261231036 WB Knock Sensor
OLD: LT1 TA 700hp + MS3X
Kzcleve
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by Kzcleve »

Hello all , I just wanted to chime in and say hi and that I am new to the forum and really forums in general. I also wanted to say I am very interested in the progress of the optispark on ms3x project. I am getting ready to add MS3/MS3X to my lt1 with opti. I plan to use the Cadillac waste spark setup. I have quite a bit of experience in engine management and modeling and I would be happy to contribute to the development of opti support. I also wanted to add my thanks for all the hard work.
Dookie454
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by Dookie454 »

Welcome Kzcleve! If your car is running on the stock ECU still, I would suggest wiring in the MS3 with just opti signals, see if you can get a clean sequential signal with no sync loss. If you can, slowly add a few sensors, checking signal along the way. Then, wire the stock coil using Tacho pin 26, though it didnt matter if the stock ECU was driving spark or the MS3, either connected would cause sync loss with any type of spark. For each step I would suggest driving the car.. as much as possible (20-30mins) and check sync loss.

Here's a nice datalog showing my current problem... sync loss sync'd to a spark event... it comes and goes depending on ignition timing.. 20 degree's is minimal, 35 degree's is very bad. I moved it from the car, back inside the house/bench and it's acting the same exact way.. so that's good at least for troubleshooting.

This occur's on the stock single coil setup, or with 8 LS2 coils connected sequentially. Stock ECU or MS3X controlling spark. I noticed it was mainly coils/cyl 1 and 3 causing the problem (with them disconnected, no sync loss would occur).

Confused!
MS3X on 2010 Camaro LS3 + Whipple @ 10psi + HPT + AEM 30-0333/0334 WB
MS3 Knock Module + JBPerf Dual VR v2.1 (Removed), didnt play well with LS3 DBW Motor, works for VSS.
OLD: 1997 Chevy Z71 Vortec 350, + BOSCH 0261231036 WB Knock Sensor
OLD: LT1 TA 700hp + MS3X
Kzcleve
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by Kzcleve »

Thanks Dookie454, I appreciate the log file. I am going to look it over in the next few days. Over this next weekend I think I will have time to wire up my stock Opti and see what we get. I will keep you updated. Also, thanks for the advice.
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by jsmcortina »

Dookie454 wrote:Here's a few pictures of the sync loss pattern, looks very consistent where it fails and it appears to fail on one of the low res slots every time, possibly the smallest or the largest of the 4 different shaped slots, but not 100% sure.
So these are captured at the signal going into the Megasquirt from the Opti?

It seems odd that the signal there is being disturbed to that level.

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
New users, please read the "Forum Help Page".
Dookie454
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by Dookie454 »

This is the composite logger, graphed the signals as the MS3 see's it using a labview program I made (saves a lot of time compared to putting it in excel). Labview allows for quick and easy graph zooming, scrolling etc, excel does not. If interested I can email the install files. Just have to delete the "mark" spaces so it will graph without error.

If I were to scope some wires looking for noise... Would it be the tach output, coil 12v, other?
MS3X on 2010 Camaro LS3 + Whipple @ 10psi + HPT + AEM 30-0333/0334 WB
MS3 Knock Module + JBPerf Dual VR v2.1 (Removed), didnt play well with LS3 DBW Motor, works for VSS.
OLD: 1997 Chevy Z71 Vortec 350, + BOSCH 0261231036 WB Knock Sensor
OLD: LT1 TA 700hp + MS3X
jsmcortina
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by jsmcortina »

Composite logs can also be viewed in the latest beta MegaLogViewer - although I don't know if registration is required? (TS requires registration to re-view them)

I'd scope the low-res input and the troublesome logic spark output.

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
New users, please read the "Forum Help Page".
Dookie454
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by Dookie454 »

I registered both TS and MLV awhile ago, there was something I couldn't do, or maybe the graph didn't look quite the same as it did if I put it into excel. I'll play with it.

Ok, I'll try those, thanks. I'll be using my sound card like last time though.
MS3X on 2010 Camaro LS3 + Whipple @ 10psi + HPT + AEM 30-0333/0334 WB
MS3 Knock Module + JBPerf Dual VR v2.1 (Removed), didnt play well with LS3 DBW Motor, works for VSS.
OLD: 1997 Chevy Z71 Vortec 350, + BOSCH 0261231036 WB Knock Sensor
OLD: LT1 TA 700hp + MS3X
Dookie454
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Posts: 344
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:18 pm

Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by Dookie454 »

I scope high and low opti signals, with and without spark... All ok. No difference.

Scope of low res and tach/coil output looks fine without spark powered up... Once spark is on, the low res is fine, but tach/coil drops out, kinda jumps all over when sync loss.

Here's a vid, you can hear when I enable spark. Not sure if it will link correctly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALphaeQk ... ata_player
MS3X on 2010 Camaro LS3 + Whipple @ 10psi + HPT + AEM 30-0333/0334 WB
MS3 Knock Module + JBPerf Dual VR v2.1 (Removed), didnt play well with LS3 DBW Motor, works for VSS.
OLD: 1997 Chevy Z71 Vortec 350, + BOSCH 0261231036 WB Knock Sensor
OLD: LT1 TA 700hp + MS3X
Kzcleve
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Re: MS3 and LT1 Camaro

Post by Kzcleve »

Well, I got the MS3/MSx together this weekend and so far, everything is working well. I am using the v3.0 board. Hopefully I will be able to get it in the car this coming week and see what is going on with the Opti/tach signal on my car. Dookie454, I re-read all the posts in this forum and I have to say, I am a little confused with which hardware setup you ended up with. It would be useful for me if you could provide here or in an email a quick rundown on your best setup so far. i.e which pull-up resistors, capacitors, wiring for the opti., code version. ect. I would like to begin with a setup that is close to what you are testing to see If I end up with the same results. Thanks.
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