Ion sensing

[karlo]

I'd be happy if someone could design a complete circuit for ion sensing. I've seen some circuits for this, but without descriptions of the actual components, and I don't personally have the knowledge to fill in the blanks.

[bubba2533]

After looking in to Ion Sensing I think it would be amazing if the MS could take the signal from the module (or custom circuit) and display this as a waveform or even just pick off the peak location. I think this would not only work with Ion Sense, but would allow people to do other things as well.

For example:
1) Ion Sense
2) Find minimum MAP value at all RPM's (This could help with tuning MAP sampling angle)
3) Could allow someone to use MS with a in-cylinder pressure transducer (similar to Ion Sense, but a lot more expensive)

[OliverH]

Maybe this doc helps to build pcb for use with MS:
http://vvnet.fi/ville/ion/DIY-Ion-Sensing-2.pdf

[OliverH]

One more practical:
http://www.molla.org/DIY-CDI/
Specially this one:
http://www.molla.org/DIY-CDI/DIY-CDI-Tr ... rigger.htm

[S.Bretz]

I have been looking at in cylinder pressure transducers the last few days and I have found one that "appears" it will work with the MS and 0-5v ADC circuit. The plugs are offered in different heat ranges and sizes. I just don't know if the MS will be able to monitor it fast enough. The scopes that the company used sample at 50mhz...the MS3, last I checked and update an SD card at up to 333hz.

The simplest way I can think to use this would be to have a VR sensor hooked up an log every tooth on a 36-1 tooth wheel....that way you can count 10, 20, 30....degrees of crank rotation...then have the pressure signal over layed to see where max pressure is made after TDC. I imagine something like similar to the composite logger screen in TS would work to graph so you can see where the pressure peaks in relation to the crank angle.


I'll try to look into the sensor I found more and see if we can get JUST the spark plug sensor and ....the most important part: How much?

[muythaibxr]

The angle clock in 2.0 will allow us (or you) to correlate more or less any loggable sensor value with at least an approximate angle (depending on engine speed, we won't be able to log every tick of the angle clock).

Ken

[S.Bretz]

hmm....how actuate is "approximate?" At steady engine speeds I would guess that a
guess" would be pretty accurate....butI'm assuming the guess gets more deviation( or error) in it at higher rpm's and when the agluar moment is changing rapidly.

[bubba2533]

trying to keep this alive. I found a basic diagram on the Delphi website.

[karlo]

Have seen that schematic several other places as well. Seems like a simple circuit to make, certainly much simpler than making a separate high voltage supply. However, I have been unable to find component specs for it.

[Keithg]

One thing may be to see if you can disassemble a T8 trionic DI cassette. These are found on GM 2.2 and 2.4 I4 from about 2003-current.

KeithG

[MS2tester]

maybe for some idea,s
http://books.sae.org/book-r-388?&PC=INT ... 6109753427

Engine Combustion: Pressure Measurement and Analysis

[OliverH]

One thing may be to see if you can disassemble a T8 trionic DI cassette. These are found on GM 2.2 and 2.4 I4 from about 2003-current.

KeithG

A trionic 8 is coil near plug => no cassette ; question is if trionic 8 is a real Saab trionic or a relabeled/rebranded Bosch Motronic, as OPEL still use it and trionic 8 has Bosch Motronic connectors on the ECU. At this time Saab were in GMs beancounter world -
A trionic 5/7 is coil on plug => red or black cassette (red trionic 5, black trionic 7)

You can't dissamble a trionic cassette. Only the first trionic 5 cassettes having separate high voltage coils to replace.

Today if ion current sensor/ or one of the coil drivers (only three chips inside which are known to fail at some time) is blown up the T5/ T7 cassette has to been replaced - smokes like a burned eagle.
T8 is much more stable against failing.

[bubba2533]

trying to keep this alive. I found a basic diagram on the Delphi website.

Can someone with electrical engineering or some type of electrical experience give me some idea of what values for all these components should be?

And if someone could point me toward how the internals of an average coil are wired and how its actuated I would like to know more.

[Ashg]

i have got a red t5 di pack i can donate to the cause it was starting to miss fire when it come off the car but someone can have it if they fancy pulling it apart to see what is inside.

[Keithg]

i have got a red t5 di pack i can donate to the cause it was starting to miss fire when it come off the car but someone can have it if they fancy pulling it apart to see what is inside.

With the potted electronics, there is really nothing to see by disassembling it.

Keith

[MS2tester]

http://www.dynaloy.com/electronics/pott ... n-removers

[Keithg]

http://www.dynaloy.com/electronics/pott ... n-removers

Knock yourself out! Not really what I have in mind as a project...

Keith

[Ashg]

i didnt fancy pulling it apart either

keith that map you sent me was pretty sweet for the b204 other than the startup and idle, i hardly had to change anything running .7 bar boost. have managed to blag a day on the local college's rr next month in exchange for letting some students watch. will have to see if i can find a way of just logging the signals, tbh i have cam sensor retrofitted like you so that is low on the list but i would like to log knock/misfire against the ms log data, that would be really cool. im not using the saab apc as i have one of the diyautotune ebc valves.

[bubba2533]

i have got a red t5 di pack i can donate to the cause it was starting to miss fire when it come off the car but someone can have it if they fancy pulling it apart to see what is inside.

I'd take it. But I'm in the US and I'm sure shipping would be expensive.

[bubba2533]

trying to keep this alive. I found a basic diagram on the Delphi website.

I am starting to not agree with this picture.

Can someone tell me how that capacitor (C1) is charged to 80 volts? It doesn't make sense to me because it is inline with the secondary winding which would be running over 10,000 volts on most cars. If the secondary winding was only up to 80 volts then there would not be a spark.