Rally Antilag anytime soon?

Testing and development of Megasquirt 3

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jasaircraft
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Rally Antilag anytime soon?

Post by jasaircraft »

Hi I really need this feature present either on MSII or MSIII ASAP, its for N4 group rally cars.
Anyone have any info on when could we have this available?
regards,
joe
jasaircraft
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Rally Antilag anytime soon??

Post by jasaircraft »

Hi I really need this feature present either on MSII or MSIII ASAP, its for N4 group rally cars.
Anyone have any info on when could we have this available?
regards,
joe
wes kiser
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Re: Rally Antilag anytime soon?

Post by wes kiser »

I assume you mean like the AEM implementation? I ask because I doubt the developers understand the feature you are describing.
86 Rx-7, swapped to 2.3 ford turbo (BW EFR 6758), ms3/ms3x sequential fuel /waste spark, ls2 coils
88 Tbird 2.3t, Microsquirt Module (PIMP), TFI ignition
jasaircraft
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Re: Rally Antilag anytime soon?

Post by jasaircraft »

yeah, I mean probably most of you guys know it, most big name ecus have it, retard ignition which you can adjust, increase inj pulse (adjustable), use tps only or tps and switch, have a minimum rpm for it to happen, minimum coolant temp, over what tps value should it be on, duration of this effect(s), Rotational idle start rpm and end rpm (rotational idle is a sequence in which normal injector are taken away to prevent the engine from revving up because you need to have the throttle plate open (in order to have the pops and bangs antilag makes) and also have the option of activating an output while this feature is activated to drive either a big bypass valve or other valve. You can download many programs and see it.
tpsretard2
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Re: Rally Antilag anytime soon?

Post by tpsretard2 »

The aem implementation is god awful.
Needs to be more like the after of that ecu, the GeMs rally implant.

Or from pectel..

But you will not see it in the ms2.
not unless someone takes the code and strips out some of the features for the space and writes the new code.
you will have to wait for the ms3 implementation. Or if you can't wait buy a big name ecu. Personally i use pectel..
muythaibxr
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Re: Rally Antilag anytime soon?

Post by muythaibxr »

Yeah we weren't planning on implementing it on ms2. On ms3 it was going to wait for the angle clock to be done. Even then I would want to see it on another EMS first.

Ken
tpsretard2
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Re: Rally Antilag anytime soon?

Post by tpsretard2 »

any info on the als you need let me know...

i can give you from mild to wild :D

Gems, pectel, TAG Maclarin, Motec and more i have used and have software can even send you logs :D
wes kiser
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Re: Rally Antilag anytime soon?

Post by wes kiser »

I mentioned AEM because they have a crude version that doesn't require and ALS valve or DBW. What Pectel strategy doesn't? On the Sq6 and Mq12 I have played with, they both appeared to need ALS valves (I don't know a good way to do it without).
86 Rx-7, swapped to 2.3 ford turbo (BW EFR 6758), ms3/ms3x sequential fuel /waste spark, ls2 coils
88 Tbird 2.3t, Microsquirt Module (PIMP), TFI ignition
tpsretard2
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Re: Rally Antilag anytime soon?

Post by tpsretard2 »

a very mild ALS will not need an ALS vlave or the throttle to be jacked open.
But with this what the ALS code do is jack the idle controller right open.

This however is still pointless as you are not doing anything. you need air to move around the throttle plate when you are off throttle. If you do not have enough air you will get one or 2 pops and bangs but nothing in the order of boost. Also you will over heat your exhaust valves and manifold very quick as you are moving any air around them.

With the rally car i drive and work on, off throttle above 2,000rpm we still have 5psi of boost above 3500rpm we have 10psi.
This is fairly aggressive as we are running about 64deg after tdc on closed throttle, and we eat turbos, but even a mild als needs air..

30deg after tdc will give yo a 1/4 decent als that will not kill your engine or turbo once you have good air around it.

the AEM is limited to 17deg unless you shift your ignition, then you have to add to your ignition table what you shifted it by.
jasaircraft
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Re: Rally Antilag anytime soon?

Post by jasaircraft »

good info there tpsretard, I generally have between 25 and 35 atdc ign retard for antilag.
I set it up in the following way(on haltechs):
I turn on the antilag option and set my cyclic idle rpm at around 2000rpm.
I set all the parameters as in the following picture;

Image

Then I start opening the throttle plate until I get the desired boost which I tend to leave at about 8psi of max boost when antilagging.
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Re: Rally Antilag anytime soon?

Post by jsmcortina »

How does it work in "TPS only" ? Wouldn't it activate every time you let off the throttle ?

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Re: Rally Antilag anytime soon?

Post by jsmcortina »

Something like this ?
Screenshot-Anti-lag.png
James
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dfzuntor
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Re: Rally Antilag anytime soon?

Post by dfzuntor »

this looks so cool James, I can't wait to test it...
will it be avaliable on the next firmware release???

David
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Re: Rally Antilag anytime soon?

Post by jsmcortina »

This code will hopefully be in a near-future alpha release. The pre-1.0 code is bugfixes only.

James
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tpsretard2
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Re: Rally Antilag anytime soon?

Post by tpsretard2 »

james good try at that ALS code.

However you need a table for the tpsretard. to make it useful it need to be more controllable.
I have a pic of the gems ALS table, this is all very simple als.

Attached is a pic of the map. the value is deg absolute, the - in front is for retard from 0, yours seems to be the same way (yes 52deg after tdc in one points )

The reason for a 3d table is because when you are below the active throttle threshold and as you open the throttle it is get VERY aggressive, the more it is open the less retard you need, there is no formula for this ether, it is all dependent on the size of the turbo and the driver.

also the lower the rpm is the more retard you need not the other way around.

also TPS cant be active at 5% it has to be 0 as when you come off the throttle into a corner you will not have your als.

now there is a second part that is needed to really make als work, you need a cut table.manly for when you are clean off the throttle. never needed to make a cut table go passed 15% tps this is normally a fuel cut. it is used to stop the engine from accelerating and pushing the car through the brakes when off throttle.

If i have not explained something properly let me know, i am sending this with little time on my hands.
GeMs Group N als.jpg
jsmcortina
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Re: Rally Antilag anytime soon?

Post by jsmcortina »

tpsretard2 wrote:However you need a table for the tpsretard. to make it useful it need to be more controllable.
So a table to retard(tps,rpm) ok.
also TPS cant be active at 5% it has to be 0 as when you come off the throttle into a corner you will not have your als.
That I can understand. How is the system activated? I took the idea of TPS/switch but wasn't entirely sure why. Don't you ONLY want a switch to turn the system on/off or ???
now there is a second part that is needed to really make als work, you need a cut table.manly for when you are clean off the throttle. never needed to make a cut table go passed 15% tps this is normally a fuel cut.
Is this the "rot idle" setting posted above? I didn't understand what that was.
If you are cyclicly cutting fuel to cylinders, this can ONLY be with port injection - surely.

How should spark cut be handled?

James
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xrattiracer
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Re: Rally Antilag anytime soon?

Post by xrattiracer »

the switch would be for "arming" the feature. you may not want it active while driving on the street :)
tpsretard2
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Re: Rally Antilag anytime soon?

Post by tpsretard2 »

in the early days james where the first group N rally cars were allowed to change the ecu, there were 3 rules, they had to fit in the oem case. They could not cut the wires, and the ALS had to be enabled with out a switch.

The arming sequence was simple. Depress the throttle, turn on the ignition with the peddle held for how ever many seconds were defined, let off the throttle then start the car. when you wanted the als you had to blip the throttle passed a given throttle opening, normal about 80%. to turn it off when you passed flying finnish you have to turn off the ignition and back on, using the kill switch normally as this would be the easiest thing to find.

in my opinion there is no need for this with the megasquirt, just a switch to ground to enable it.

The rotational idle is again from the groupN and early Group A era, you jacked the throttle open as you could not add anything throttle kickers or air bypass valves to the engine. the throttle is jack to the point where you can bounce the engine off the limiter. make for driving the car in traffic very hard. Again a tps based map for that is used. you cut or limit the fiul for the cylinders to stop the engine from reving out. makes the car sounds like it has overly aggressive cams. falling to 1,000rpm and flying up to 2,000rpm constantly with the occasional pop from the exhaust as you normally have to use a spark limit or retard the timing, my sti rally car will idle with 0 deg.

it is the cheapest and easiest way to get als.

With sequential injection you can make the engine run more smooth with the fuel limit. but it dos not matter what it is. batch, bank, tbi, port.
they all work, just with varying results.
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Re: Rally Antilag anytime soon?

Post by jsmcortina »

So for the Megasquirt-3 implementation, what changes do you think are required to what I posted?

1. make the advance/retard into a table instead of a curve
2. fuel additions - ok ?
3. remove minimum TPS ?
4. require a switch to operate
5. spark cut limiting ? what parameters ?
6. fuel cut limiting ? what parameters ?
7. idle valve settings - ok ?

I really need this spelled out as I am unfamiliar with it.

How about support for systems with air and fuel injection into the exhaust system? I already added the "on/off" and "PWM" outputs as a nod in that direction.

James
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tpsretard2
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Re: Rally Antilag anytime soon?

Post by tpsretard2 »

1, Yes make it a curve, 8x8 might be ok, 12x12 would be more than enough.
2, the fuel additions are fine as a table, but needs to be tps, not rpm, but cut out when the table crosses back to 0, indicating not to retard.
the perpous of the additional fuel is the cool things like the exhaust valves and manifold, done right can make it more aggressive also.
3, The min and max tps should come from the table like i mentioned above.
4, Yes a switch to enable.
5, i have never liked spark cut limited, find it makes it very harsh to drive, but it is a % cut of the spark, normally dos not drop the spark but makes it very
week (under dwell i would guess)
6, fuel limiting is definitely needed, again the same size table at the tps retard map. this is a % limit on the fuel again.
7, the idle valve setting are fine, will be 100% open most of the time and that will not be enough for usable rally style als.
8, over run fuel needs to be disabled, if this is on it will not work.

there are 2 outputs that you will need, the PWM will go for the new EGR valves,
The on and off output will be for the air bypass or the throttle kicker.

the EGR alows you to channel it into the exhaust without going into the engine, this means less retard, and less heat on the engine parts, more natural to drive also and can get better response also.
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