New Version PCB

Testing and development of Megasquirt 3

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New Version PCB

Postby bpetkus » Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:46 pm

Hey Guys,

Is anyone working on a new board design. I am thinking about developing the next gen board but I dont want to step on anyones feet or do over someone elses work.

I am looking to address the following items:

-Combine MS2/3 daughterboard
-Incorporate MS3X board
-Incorporate header for wideband lambda module
-provisions for OBD2 CAN PID
-Replace DB37's with a more robust connector option (either or)
-Allow better heat sinking/case solution
-isolate all CPU in/outputs not currently handled on board
-maybe remove or redesign proto area as header for add on proto board

my intention is to standardize (more like normalize it a bit) the IO mapping a bit. there have been so many option changes from back in the day (hardware wise) that I think it is time to do a little clean up.

please let me know if there is a wish list as it is easy to add headers and features early on.
-Bryan Petkus
bryanpetkus@yahoo.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Re: New Version PCB

Postby mrx79 » Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:00 am

A new GenBoard would be a nice idea... maybe to clean it up a bit and make it more suitable for up to date development like sequential injection (at least for 4 cylinders) and second trigger input for dual wheel setups and some more standard IO outputs for the most used features without need of an extra boad and wires all around the PCB.

But i guess this must be coordinated in a good way, as you saied... to not step on anyones feet and to make it a good basic for most of the users and not just a small group of people.
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Re: New Version PCB

Postby racingmini_mtl » Wed Jun 15, 2011 6:27 am

All the MegaSquirt code, including MS1/Extra, MS2/Extra and MS3, is licensed such that it can only be run on B&G hardware. So the only way your idea would work is if you got a license from them. And for MS3, you would also need to talk to the developers, James and Ken.

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Re: New Version PCB

Postby Matt Cramer » Wed Jun 15, 2011 6:52 am

As for an official next generation board - while there have been a number of other projects, like getting the MS3 upgrade path to the V3.0 / V3.57 up and running, that have delayed releasing a new generation of the board, rest assured that official product development hasn't stopped with the V3.57. There have been plans from the get-go for a second generation of the MS3 that was not based on an existing main board, but B&G wanted to make the MS3 as a set of add on cards first as a proof of concept. So the answer to "Is anyone working on a new board design?" is a definite yes.
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Re: New Version PCB

Postby bpetkus » Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:07 pm

First of all. Jean I am slightly caught of guard by your comment. If I were going to make or contribute to an unofficial pcb do you think I would be discuss it here? I understand you are a very helpful member in the community and I appreciate that much, but lets stay on topic. Now I am only looking to contribute and help make the next generation board and only interested in development approved by Al and Bruce.(ie official B&G boards)

Thanks Matt for the insight. Who is currently working on the development of version4/next generation boards? I would like to assist in design and possibly fab a few prototypes.

Thanks again guys!
-Bryan Petkus
bryanpetkus@yahoo.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1994 2.0L MPI Turbo Talon w/ MSnS -E
1985 4.2L MPI Stroker w/4.0L Head Jeep CJ w/ MS
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Re: New Version PCB

Postby racingmini_mtl » Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:21 pm

bpetkus wrote:First of all. Jean I am slightly caught of guard by your comment. If I were going to make or contribute to an unofficial pcb do you think I would be discuss it here? I understand you are a very helpful member in the community and I appreciate that much, but lets stay on topic. Now I am only looking to contribute and help make the next generation board and only interested in development approved by Al and Bruce.(ie official B&G boards)

First, this is entirely on topic. And your post did not show at all that you were aware of the licensing issues so I just mentioned them. Also, no B&G hardware has ever been developed this way so you might want to contact B&G directly to see how they feel about it. Saying that you want to contribute to the next B&G board is one thing but if they are not interested, your only option is to make your own licensed version and then this forum would not be the place to do it.

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Re: New Version PCB

Postby K2e2vin » Wed Jun 15, 2011 3:02 pm

Matt, do you know if there's a general expected time frame that the new gen board is supposed to be released?
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Re: New Version PCB

Postby Matt Cramer » Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:09 am

K2e2vin wrote:Matt, do you know if there's a general expected time frame that the new gen board is supposed to be released?


No, all I can say is "it will be released when it's ready to be released." We'd rather miss a deadline than rush a not thoroughly debugged board into production.

As Jean noted, B&G have generally only worked with a few people they know well on main board design. While it's kind of you to offer to help, bringing in too many others to develop a board can make the effort hard to coordinate. It's too easy for it to turn from a hardware design project into a cat-herding project when you have too many people on board. Sorry, I'm just not sure how we could go about adding more people to designing the core board. Cooking up new third party peripheral devices is always welcome, though.
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Re: New Version PCB

Postby sanec » Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:01 pm

Matt Cramer wrote:
K2e2vin wrote:Matt, do you know if there's a general expected time frame that the new gen board is supposed to be released?


No, all I can say is "it will be released when it's ready to be released." We'd rather miss a deadline than rush a not thoroughly debugged board into production.

As Jean noted, B&G have generally only worked with a few people they know well on main board design. While it's kind of you to offer to help, bringing in too many others to develop a board can make the effort hard to coordinate. It's too easy for it to turn from a hardware design project into a cat-herding project when you have too many people on board. Sorry, I'm just not sure how we could go about adding more people to designing the core board. Cooking up new third party peripheral devices is always welcome, though.

I too would be glad to offer you assistance in the development, I understand that it is difficult to keep track of all, but maybe something can be entrusted to people who want to help and develop the project with you.
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Re: New Version PCB

Postby subwoofer » Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:55 am

Matt Cramer wrote:No, all I can say is "it will be released when it's ready to be released." We'd rather miss a deadline than rush a not thoroughly debugged board into production.


Please don't consider this a nag, I merely wanted to express my hope that the coming version will be built around a proper IP64 or better housing and connectors so the MS3 can be mounted in the engine bay. Makes installation a lot easier when the OEM ECU is in the engine bay.

No rush, though, better with a well engineered product than something rushed out the door and failing in the field.
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Re: New Version PCB

Postby MS2tester » Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:29 am

bpetkus wrote:First of all. Jean I am slightly caught of guard by your comment. If I were going to make or contribute to an unofficial pcb do you think I would be discuss it here? I understand you are a very helpful member in the community and I appreciate that much, but lets stay on topic. Now I am only looking to contribute and help make the next generation board and only interested in development approved by Al and Bruce.(ie official B&G boards)

Thanks Matt for the insight. Who is currently working on the development of version4/next generation boards? I would like to assist in design and possibly fab a few prototypes.

Thanks again guys!


if you want to design a board
why not a 8 channel CDI ignition board
this could be considerd missing from the megasquirt inventory

prefferbly a simple DIY board with just power and logic level inputs from the megasquirt unit
maybe this can give you some ideas
http://www.sportdevices.com/ignition/ignition.htm
http://www.sportdevices.com/ignition/inverter.htm
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Re: New Version PCB

Postby quark2501 » Sun Jan 15, 2012 12:38 am

+1
SUPRA-------> The only way to fly
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Re: New Version PCB

Postby Jobro » Mon Feb 06, 2012 6:12 am

It is certainly time for V4 PCB / MS3 integration/

My expectations are:

6 layer pcb
Black extruded alloy enclosure
Smaller than V3 single height enclosure
IP rated certainly dust/water proof
2x 30+ pin ampseal connectors on back (really not a fan of the db37 even tho they are common and cheap)
Surface mount
Integrated pref 3bar map sensor
Integrated baro
6-8 proper injector drivers (decent fets)
6-8 ignition drivers (just decent 20+ milliamp outputs not actual coil drivers)

Realistically Price would have to come in around $7-800USD assembled I think
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Re: New Version PCB

Postby racingmini_mtl » Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:54 am

Jobro wrote:Realistically Price would have to come in around $7-800USD assembled I think

You haven't priced what you're asking for or you expect vendors to distribute this for free.

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Re: New Version PCB

Postby Reverant » Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:59 am

2x30=60 pins are not that many.
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Re: New Version PCB

Postby UnaClocker » Mon Feb 06, 2012 10:09 am

racingmini_mtl wrote:
Jobro wrote:Realistically Price would have to come in around $7-800USD assembled I think

You haven't priced what you're asking for or you expect vendors to distribute this for free.

Jean

Those AMPSEAL connectors certainly are expensive! Everything else he mentioned should actually bring the cost DOWN because it will eliminate redundant parts and go with cheaper (nowadays) SMT components.
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Re: New Version PCB

Postby racingmini_mtl » Mon Feb 06, 2012 10:28 am

UnaClocker wrote:Those AMPSEAL connectors certainly are expensive! Everything else he mentioned should actually bring the cost DOWN because it will eliminate redundant parts and go with cheaper (nowadays) SMT components.

A 6-layer board and an IP rated case are not bringing cost down. And the component cost is a very small part of the overall cost; that's not what will drive the final price up or down in any significant manner.

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Re: New Version PCB

Postby krisr » Mon Feb 06, 2012 5:32 pm

If the manufacturing costs are around 600-800$, RRP i'd imagine would be around 1200-1400$ and would be a terrific competitor to ECU's like Motec M800's, Autronic SM4's and the likes that retail up around $2500+ before you even build the wiring looms.

I personallly would not be interested in one as I like the DIY aspect and bang for buck that my old trusty V3.0 board & MS3X delivers suits my application just fine.
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Re: New Version PCB

Postby nuvolarossa » Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:17 am

what about evolution? ms1 and ms2 are feature freezed, right? Keep selling them but stop hardware development on their boards.
They don't need a v4 board. They already have v3 and v3.57

Who needs a new better integrated board? MS3 for sure. So make v4 board compatible only starting from MS3, not backwards.

My dream:
- smd mainboard
- all current MS3+MS3x functions, obliviously compatible with MS3 cpu board and MS3x sockets
- a better case (even if a bit larger/longer, not higher)
- two "better" connectors (than printer's one :D ) for a total of 70-90pins available, I saw 35p ampseals for 6 usd each, +7 for each female, so I bet +20usd total
- integrated wideband lambda controller in the mainboard (to definitely end all this a/d conversion ****), user could buy the bosch sensor separately if he want to use this, output available to drive a standard 0-5v gauge
- two knock sensors input, amplifiers integrated in mainboard
- "proto zone" to insert "somewhat standard" mini boards for additional egt, gps or wideband controllers
then concentrate on the coding to integrate all these things.

but maybe this would mean MS4 and not a simple genboard update... and maybe it's too much for the original megasquirt meaning of getting hands dirty, diy etc. :D
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Re: New Version PCB

Postby GintsK » Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:22 pm

I wrote similar suggestions before. In short answer was: owners of project are B&G. And they do whatever they want... Or do not...
In my opinion keeping V3 PCB for MS3 is shame. But their opinion is different....

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