Knock module for MS3 (beta test)
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Re: Knock module for MS3 (beta test)
http://e2e.ti.com/support/applications/ ... spx#553334
Post #4 by a TI employee:
"The TPIC8101 only works with the resonant type knock sensor. We do not offer a device that works with the non-resonant type."
Post #4 by a TI employee:
"The TPIC8101 only works with the resonant type knock sensor. We do not offer a device that works with the non-resonant type."
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2005 Audi A3 2.0L TFSI DSG AWD - Extreme MS3
2002 Mazda Miata 1.8 6sp - Enhanced MS3 1.4.0, sequential injection, sequential ignition, big turbo, lots of boost
2005 Audi A3 2.0L TFSI DSG AWD - Extreme MS3
2002 Mazda Miata 1.8 6sp - Enhanced MS3 1.4.0, sequential injection, sequential ignition, big turbo, lots of boost
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Re: Knock module for MS3 (beta test)
Seems to be an error in nomenclature. If it was truly the case that the TPIC8101 only worked with resonant type sensors then there would be no need for the device to have a bandpass filter.Reverant wrote:http://e2e.ti.com/support/applications/ ... spx#553334
Post #4 by a TI employee:
"The TPIC8101 only works with the resonant type knock sensor. We do not offer a device that works with the non-resonant type."
88 RX-7 TII - MS2 Extra 1.0.2
68 Mustang 351C - MS3X
88 Volvo 245 - 2JZGTE VVTi powered, MS3X + MSGPIO Mshift controlled
68 Mustang 351C - MS3X
88 Volvo 245 - 2JZGTE VVTi powered, MS3X + MSGPIO Mshift controlled
Re: Knock module for MS3 (beta test)
TI page says TPIC8101 "drop-in" for HIP9011 http://e2e.ti.com/support/applications/ ... 84859.aspx
I knew OEM ECU where HIP9011 is used together with "wide band" sensor.
And what else is strange: in their training document scopeshots are not accordant. In real life both sensors gives signal all the time and difference is visible (except amplitude) just in spectral analysis. Flat response scopeshoot comes from picoscope webpage where signal is gotten by clicking engine block with wrench. It does not comes from operating engine!
I suppose they simply do not want support designs with flat-response sensors because of higher complexity.
TIP's band pass filter is not so "sharp". Device still "sees" side frequencies very well. So main software should be very sophisticated to catch just knock as knock and noise as noise.
Gints
I knew OEM ECU where HIP9011 is used together with "wide band" sensor.
And what else is strange: in their training document scopeshots are not accordant. In real life both sensors gives signal all the time and difference is visible (except amplitude) just in spectral analysis. Flat response scopeshoot comes from picoscope webpage where signal is gotten by clicking engine block with wrench. It does not comes from operating engine!
I suppose they simply do not want support designs with flat-response sensors because of higher complexity.
TIP's band pass filter is not so "sharp". Device still "sees" side frequencies very well. So main software should be very sophisticated to catch just knock as knock and noise as noise.
Gints
Some of my instalations:
VW TBI, VW 16V 60-2,
BMW M50 COPs 60-2, BMW M20 and M50 ITBs as Alpha-N, BMW M20 turbo Wasted spark
Opel 20XE Wasted Alpha-N with ITBs
Audi 10VT Audi20V
MR2 3S-GE.............
and over 100 tuned
VW TBI, VW 16V 60-2,
BMW M50 COPs 60-2, BMW M20 and M50 ITBs as Alpha-N, BMW M20 turbo Wasted spark
Opel 20XE Wasted Alpha-N with ITBs
Audi 10VT Audi20V
MR2 3S-GE.............
and over 100 tuned
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Re: Knock module for MS3 (beta test)
I would doubt that James would even be releasing it if there weren't some kind of success with this. Matt hasn't said that there had been any issues with the units they have tested. I would hazard a guess that this will work with maybe a little tweaking. That being said, I am sure that we will overcome.
According to the engineers, swapping an AC system from r12 to r134 was theoretically impossible, new lines, bigger condesor, blah blah...... Turns out they were wrong.... I guess argue all you want, but there are more than one way to skin a cat....How about a little trust in James, not like he is the habbit of letting us down.
According to the engineers, swapping an AC system from r12 to r134 was theoretically impossible, new lines, bigger condesor, blah blah...... Turns out they were wrong.... I guess argue all you want, but there are more than one way to skin a cat....How about a little trust in James, not like he is the habbit of letting us down.
Brent Savage
life behind the zion curtain
90 audi RS2 20VTQ 6sp MS3, MSX COP and Sequential and now MAF
87 Scirocco 2.0 ABA 16v EIP tubular cast MSII COP
86 Audi 4K20VTQ MSII
90 Audi 90 sedan 3.6l DOHC V8TT (project car)
89 VW cabbie (bitch basket) 2.0 ABA Turbo MSII
life behind the zion curtain
90 audi RS2 20VTQ 6sp MS3, MSX COP and Sequential and now MAF
87 Scirocco 2.0 ABA 16v EIP tubular cast MSII COP
86 Audi 4K20VTQ MSII
90 Audi 90 sedan 3.6l DOHC V8TT (project car)
89 VW cabbie (bitch basket) 2.0 ABA Turbo MSII
Re: Knock module for MS3 (beta test)
JBPerf IO/Extender?jsmcortina wrote:Electrically the card would work with MS2, but then you'd have so little I/O left it would be pointless.
Separate topic, but ... le sigh ...There's also plenty of firmware required to support the comms and windowing. I have no desire to support this on MS2.
Temporarily shut down - back soon!
QuadraMAP Sensor Module -- PWM-to-Stepper Controller -- Dual Coil Driver
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QuadraMAP Sensor Module -- PWM-to-Stepper Controller -- Dual Coil Driver
Coming soon: OctoMAP Sensor Module
TTR Ignition Systems
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Re: Knock module for MS3 (beta test)
The problem is that this would take the spark outputs and you can't move those to a CAN device.dontz125 wrote:JBPerf IO/Extender?jsmcortina wrote:Electrically the card would work with MS2, but then you'd have so little I/O left it would be pointless.
What could be done is for James to have another board with a CPU to handle all the code needed for the SPI comm and possibly using CAN for the knock data. This would then require a knock window output on the MS2. The code for configuring parameters and dealing with knock would need to be split between the MS2 and the new CPU. It would likely be possible to reuse some or most of the MS3 code but that would still not be trivial.
Jean
Re: Knock module for MS3 (beta test)
For what it's worth, I remember tapping my block with a wrench and triggering knock. 1995 + 1996 GM LT1 OBD 1 and 2. Knock sensor in bottom right side of iron block.GintsK wrote:TI page says TPIC8101 "drop-in" for HIP9011 http://e2e.ti.com/support/applications/ ... 84859.aspx
Flat response scopeshoot comes from picoscope webpage where signal is gotten by clicking engine block with wrench. It does not comes from operating engine!
I suppose they simply do not want support designs with flat-response sensors because of higher complexity.
My setup is noisy, ATI D1SC and some noisy, headers, lifters/rockers/pushrods, and only real knock sets it off.
MS3X on 2010 Camaro LS3 + Whipple @ 10psi + HPT + AEM 30-0333/0334 WB
MS3 Knock Module + JBPerf Dual VR v2.1 (Removed), didnt play well with LS3 DBW Motor, works for VSS.
OLD: 1997 Chevy Z71 Vortec 350, + BOSCH 0261231036 WB Knock Sensor
OLD: LT1 TA 700hp + MS3X
MS3 Knock Module + JBPerf Dual VR v2.1 (Removed), didnt play well with LS3 DBW Motor, works for VSS.
OLD: 1997 Chevy Z71 Vortec 350, + BOSCH 0261231036 WB Knock Sensor
OLD: LT1 TA 700hp + MS3X
Re: Knock module for MS3 (beta test)
it's a 3rd order band pass filter. Used with windowing and with the table un change sensibility with rpm. After a good calibration must be quite accurate. Plus, the freq of det change a bit with load (due to different in chamber temp, that change the speed of sound), so a little bit of margin is usefulGintsK wrote:TI page says TPIC8101 "drop-in" for HIP9011 http://e2e.ti.com/support/applications/ ... 84859.aspx
I knew OEM ECU where HIP9011 is used together with "wide band" sensor.
And what else is strange: in their training document scopeshots are not accordant. In real life both sensors gives signal all the time and difference is visible (except amplitude) just in spectral analysis. Flat response scopeshoot comes from picoscope webpage where signal is gotten by clicking engine block with wrench. It does not comes from operating engine!
I suppose they simply do not want support designs with flat-response sensors because of higher complexity.
TIP's band pass filter is not so "sharp". Device still "sees" side frequencies very well. So main software should be very sophisticated to catch just knock as knock and noise as noise.
Gints
Enrico
Opel/Vauxhall Corsa GSi MS2
Subaru v4 EJ20 MS3
Opel/Vauxhall Corsa GSi MS2
Subaru v4 EJ20 MS3
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Re: Knock module for MS3 (beta test)
Absolutely, but also, the present code is sending data to the knock chip before each spark event and the window signal is synchronised to engine position. That's a lot of information to attempt to relay to a second CPU. It would be necessary to us a minimum of two pins (even if the device was CAN connected) plus develop a new CPU board and write new firmware on both devices. That's a lot of work when the "fix" already exists with the MS3 card.racingmini_mtl wrote:The problem is that this would take the spark outputs and you can't move those to a CAN device.dontz125 wrote:JBPerf IO/Extender?jsmcortina wrote:Electrically the card would work with MS2, but then you'd have so little I/O left it would be pointless.
James
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Re: Knock module for MS3 (beta test)
I need to stop by this section more often. Good show on this one James.
$60 for something like this seems very reasonable; even if you had run off a large batch.
I can't really tell from the pics, but is the card supported on the other side opposite of the dip-40 pins on the ms3 card? If not supported on the other side; how stable is it? I would worry about it shaking around from vibration ....then again the Mapdaddy is just soldered in and held by pins too.
$60 for something like this seems very reasonable; even if you had run off a large batch.
I can't really tell from the pics, but is the card supported on the other side opposite of the dip-40 pins on the ms3 card? If not supported on the other side; how stable is it? I would worry about it shaking around from vibration ....then again the Mapdaddy is just soldered in and held by pins too.
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Re: Knock module for MS3 (beta test)
There are two pins on the other side to solder on for a rigid mounting. They are mentioned (but not shown) in the manual.
James
James
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Re: Knock module for MS3 (beta test)
Received my board today. Hopefully this week I can start providing some feedback.
88 RX-7 TII - MS2 Extra 1.0.2
68 Mustang 351C - MS3X
88 Volvo 245 - 2JZGTE VVTi powered, MS3X + MSGPIO Mshift controlled
68 Mustang 351C - MS3X
88 Volvo 245 - 2JZGTE VVTi powered, MS3X + MSGPIO Mshift controlled
Re: Knock module for MS3 (beta test)
attaching the knock sensor at the mic input of the pc (with some diodes of protection) allow to record an induced knock and lately do an fft to find the right frequency of det of a particular engine. Use the right frequency is quite important...
Enrico
Opel/Vauxhall Corsa GSi MS2
Subaru v4 EJ20 MS3
Opel/Vauxhall Corsa GSi MS2
Subaru v4 EJ20 MS3
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Re: Knock module for MS3 (beta test)
Based on the FFT analysis I've done on three engines (B230F, 2JZGTE, and LS2) I've found that the formula 900/(Pi * r) gets you within 200hz of the center frequency, at least on the three engines I've tested. James mentions this in the manual for the knock board, which I believe is sound advise based on my own research. Since you have to select pre-defined frequencies on the board itself it looks like "roundin up" to the highest matching frequency would work best.masterx81 wrote:attaching the knock sensor at the mic input of the pc (with some diodes of protection) allow to record an induced knock and lately do an fft to find the right frequency of det of a particular engine. Use the right frequency is quite important...
One thing I'm curious to try is using the strategy that mitsubishi uses on the older DSM ECU's where the bandpass frequency was the second octave and not the primary knock frequency. On the iron block engines I've done FFT analysis on, the primary knock frequency gets noisy at higher engine RPM's where the second octave intensity only increases during knock conditions. The LS2 is the only aluminum block engine I've done analysis on and it does not exhibit a second octave resonance like the iron block engines I've tested.
Looking forward to getting the knock board installed on my ECU this week.
88 RX-7 TII - MS2 Extra 1.0.2
68 Mustang 351C - MS3X
88 Volvo 245 - 2JZGTE VVTi powered, MS3X + MSGPIO Mshift controlled
68 Mustang 351C - MS3X
88 Volvo 245 - 2JZGTE VVTi powered, MS3X + MSGPIO Mshift controlled
Re: Knock module for MS3 (beta test)
Hello guys,
it's a really good thing.
It is possible to use them on V12 full sequential fuel and coil-on-plug ignition?
Regards,
Heinrich
it's a really good thing.
It is possible to use them on V12 full sequential fuel and coil-on-plug ignition?
Regards,
Heinrich
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Re: Knock module for MS3 (beta test)
I don't think there are enough pins on the MS3 to be able to do that. Certainly the current design doesn't permit that.
James
James
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Re: Knock module for MS3 (beta test)
Just a hint for anyone like me who has struggled with that formula: "r" has to be in meters! Millimeters, centimeters, and inches do _not_ work.gross polluter wrote:Based on the FFT analysis I've done on three engines (B230F, 2JZGTE, and LS2) I've found that the formula 900/(Pi * r) gets you within 200hz of the center frequency, at least on the three engines I've tested.
Eric Law
1990 Audi 80 quattro with AAN turbo engine: happily running on MS3+MS3X
2012 Audi A4 quattro, desperately in need of tweaking
Be alert! America needs more lerts.
1990 Audi 80 quattro with AAN turbo engine: happily running on MS3+MS3X
2012 Audi A4 quattro, desperately in need of tweaking
Be alert! America needs more lerts.
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Re: Knock module for MS3 (beta test)
enter half bore in meters and you'll have the result in Hz, enter it in mm and you'll have it in kHz
Please report how good it works/engine noise/etc. and datalog of it in action when tuned
BTW it's two channel, so two sensors can be connected with one module, right?
Please report how good it works/engine noise/etc. and datalog of it in action when tuned
BTW it's two channel, so two sensors can be connected with one module, right?
Robert
MS3x 1.4.1 | TS 3.0.28
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Re: Knock module for MS3 (beta test)
Right, one module can work for up to 2 sensors.nuvolarossa wrote:enter half bore in meters and you'll have the result in Hz, enter it in mm and you'll have it in kHz
Please report how good it works/engine noise/etc. and datalog of it in action when tuned
BTW it's two channel, so two sensors can be connected with one module, right?
Matt Cramer -1966 Dodge Dart slant six running on MS3X
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Re: Knock module for MS3 (beta test)
Not having much luck with mine. Seems like there needs to me more attenuation before the signal gets to the ic, at least with the factory 2JZ knock sensors. With the gain set to 1 the knock gauge always reads 101% with the gain at minimum the knock gauge bounces between 50% and 70% at idle and reads 101% off idle. Haven't had much time this week to tinker beyond installing the module and running it as-is.
Any advice on setting integrator time constant? Can't really figure that one out.
Any advice on setting integrator time constant? Can't really figure that one out.
88 RX-7 TII - MS2 Extra 1.0.2
68 Mustang 351C - MS3X
88 Volvo 245 - 2JZGTE VVTi powered, MS3X + MSGPIO Mshift controlled
68 Mustang 351C - MS3X
88 Volvo 245 - 2JZGTE VVTi powered, MS3X + MSGPIO Mshift controlled