Knock module for MS3 (beta test)

Testing and development of Megasquirt 3

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Re: Knock module for MS3 (beta test)

Postby tpsretard2 » Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:50 am

it did it again this morning.
Could it be temp related ???

i trove quite a bit this morning, and it was still hyper sensitive.
did not make a difference how i drove or how long. then i tured off and back on in the car pack at work, right away it was less sensitive.
I tryed it all yesterday in the day as i had to go out a few times, every time i started it was normal, only happens in the morning it seems.
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Re: Knock module for MS3 (beta test)

Postby jsmcortina » Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:45 am

tpsretard2 wrote:it did it again this morning.
Could it be temp related ???

I _shouldn't_ be. It sounds more like the initialisation code isn't wholly reliable. I'll have to test it out on the bench. I can't immediately think of any reason it could be related to the hardware.

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Re: Knock module for MS3 (beta test)

Postby Blades Rally Team » Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:46 am

James

Would like to buy one of these when they are available would help the Rally car not to Destroy it

Thanks

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Re: Knock module for MS3 (beta test)

Postby elaw » Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:23 am

jsmcortina wrote:
tpsretard2 wrote:it did it again this morning.
Could it be temp related ???

I _shouldn't_ be. It sounds more like the initialisation code isn't wholly reliable. I'll have to test it out on the bench. I can't immediately think of any reason it could be related to the hardware.

James

I understand it doesn't make much sense that temperature would be a factor, but I should mention the one time it happened to me was when I left the car out over a relatively cold night (it's usually kept in a semi-heated garage).
Eric Law
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Re: Knock module for MS3 (beta test)

Postby S.Bretz » Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:22 am

I don't know if its related or not, but the inconsistancy with he knock readings sounds very similar to the inconsistancy with one of my spare inputs I made. Some times the pressure sensor works fine, others it doesn't and i have to cycle power 1-2 (sometimes more, but rarely) to get a proper reading. James tested and couldn't duplicate it.

Is it possible that the I/O are getting looked at too early on the power on cycle?....IE..say full current flow isn't completely established in the extra circuitry before the processor starts to look at the i/o ??? It could be rubbish, but just a thought.
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Re: Knock module for MS3 (beta test)

Postby Metaworld » Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:00 am

Maybe James Could Tell me the something about his Pinout for the TPIC to MS

Pin 7 Int/Hold ->MS
PIN 8 CS -MS
Resonator Frequenz on Pin 9+10
Pin 11 SDO (MISO)
PIn 12 SDR (MOSI)
Pin 13 SCLK (SCK)

Where is the Test Pin wired?
Here is the Layout which is Designd from a friend of mine Peter Diener. We use this for external solution an listing to the Knock Sensor.

http://www.mikrocontroller.net/wikifile ... or_sch.pdf

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Re: Knock module for MS3 (beta test)

Postby jsmcortina » Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:09 am

Metaworld wrote:No information for self developing?

No thanks.

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Re: Knock module for MS3 (beta test)

Postby jsmcortina » Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:34 am

Regarding the intermittent cold-start odd readings problem, what ECU/engine/car temperatures are we talking about?

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Re: Knock module for MS3 (beta test)

Postby elaw » Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:27 am

James,

Looking at the log from that day, at startup CLT was about 40 degrees F. As the car had been sitting out overnight, I'd expect the temperature of the MS box to be about the same.

I do have another log taken the next day when CLT was 36 degrees at startup, which does not exhibit the problem. For what little it's worth, in the first log (the time I experienced the problem) BattV went slightly lower during cranking vs. the second log: 9.6 vs. 9.7 volts.
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Re: Knock module for MS3 (beta test)

Postby jsmcortina » Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:01 am

I put my MS3 into the freezer. With it at -15C I rebooted multiple times but haven't managed to repeat this behaviour. Odd.

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Re: Knock module for MS3 (beta test)

Postby S.Bretz » Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:36 am

In my case James, temp is not a factor at all. It seems to be more likely when the car sits for a few hours...say while I'm at work, or letting it sit over night.

MS3 with a 3.0pcb. Stable 1.0.x code. The engine.car temps do seem to matter. It will happen on a cold day or a hot day. I have tried to rewire my pressure sensor circuit and have tried two other sensors that where know to work. I had this same circuit on the MS2 and didn'[t have issues...so its something with the MS3. Like i mentioned in my last post, this is not with your knock snesor, but rather another nput circuit. It may be related, it may not. So take what I say with a grain of salt. I would hate to have you chasing your tail on something unrelated.
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Re: Knock module for MS3 (beta test)

Postby jsmcortina » Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:47 am

The internal knock board doesn't use an ADC input, it is digital communications between the knock chip and the MS3.

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Re: Knock module for MS3 (beta test)

Postby racingmini_mtl » Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:48 am

It may not be that but have you checked the solders on the module pins to make sure everything is fine?

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Re: Knock module for MS3 (beta test)

Postby elaw » Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:33 pm

I'll definitely check them again but for me at least the symptoms don't quite fit. My car has a very stiff suspension and I drive on very bumpy roads to/from work, yet the only time I've experienced this or any other problem with the board was on startup. I'd think a loose solder joint would be more likely to cause problems while the car is in motion.
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Re: Knock module for MS3 (beta test)

Postby tpsretard2 » Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:13 am

I just checked the solder joints, everything is as it should be. no dry joints.

It dos not seem to be temp related, car sat from sat night to sunday afternoon, about 2pm, and in the sun, and the day was about 36deg C
It still did it.
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Re: Knock module for MS3 (beta test)

Postby jsmcortina » Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:27 am

Is 36C a cold day (?!)

Sounds to me it is more of a "first start" problem than temperature related. Unfortunately I've not yet been able to reproduce it despite powering on and off many tens of times.

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Re: Knock module for MS3 (beta test)

Postby elaw » Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:58 am

No but 36F is! :P At least by this season's standards... we've been having a really warm winter here in the northeast US.

Sad thing is this morning it was 18F and the car was outside but I didn't have time to try starting it as I was late for work. Although as you say, it's quite possible the cold was not a cause, just a coincidence. Personally I think it's related to the political situation in North Korea... :lol:
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Re: Knock module for MS3 (beta test)

Postby shauer » Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:41 am

jsmcortina wrote:Is 36C a cold day (?!)

Sounds to me it is more of a "first start" problem than temperature related. Unfortunately I've not yet been able to reproduce it despite powering on and off many tens of times.

James


Just a thought, do you perform a read-back verification of the knock settings from the chip following initialization? In my real job I have had problems like this in the past with intermittent drop-outs during write. The only solution I was able to come up with after double checking everything else was to read-back verify and repeat the write if verification failed.

Another thought is sensitivity of the knock module to supply voltage drop / noise during cranking?

Also having the knock sensor harness routed close to the alternator or starter might be a bad idea.

Just my $0.02
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Re: Knock module for MS3 (beta test)

Postby jsmcortina » Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:27 am

shauer wrote:Just a thought, do you perform a read-back verification of the knock settings from the chip following initialization?

That is well worth investigating, thanks for the tip.

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Re: Knock module for MS3 (beta test)

Postby tpsretard2 » Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:24 am

james i do not know if this will help as i do not have a log of it.

I went to get in the car this morning to start it, but did not, however i left the ignition on, was for some time also.

about 15-20 mins later i went to start it, but it did not catch right away, (regulator dos not hold fuel pressure) i could keep cranking and it would start, but when it happens i just switch off and the back on and i am good. Now this hole time i had the laptop on. not data logging, just on :( i use a histogram for the knock level.

when i did the fast switch and on i looked across to the laptop to see the knock was normal, or normal for my car. however before the switch off to restart, the histogram showed a straight line, not at zero where you would expect, but it was at 20%, no ripple as the engine was not running, but it was there. i will try and duplicate this tomorrow morning again.
but i figure i should mention this to you.. have no idea if it would give you somewhere to look or not..
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