2005 Miata VVT angle not steady
Moderators: jsmcortina, muythaibxr
2005 Miata VVT angle not steady
I'm having a problem getting my VVT going. The motor is from a 2005 Mazda Miata with stock sensors. MS3 w/MS3x, using the MS3x for the cam in signal.
The issue is that the VVT angle bounces back and forth between ~295* and ~270*. I'm pretty sure the cam isn't moving 20* since the car idles and runs perfectly. A composite log seems to confirm this. I worked out that at 1,000RPM 20* is about 3ms. I don't see 3ms of jitter anywhere in the log, but this is the first time I've really dug into one. Unplugging the solenoid has no affect on the numbers bouncing around. If I set the duty cycle to 100 the car stalls as expected. If I enable PID control the car surges badly while the cam tries to move to compensate for non-existant movement then eventually stalls. At the very end of the attached log I stall the car by advancing the cam and you can see a brief interval where the angle is >300*.
So far I tried to change from rising edge triggers to falling edge triggers as I saw other 99+ Miatas set up with falling edge. Couldn't get the car to start, sounded like it was very badly timed. Popping through the intake, kicking back the starter, etc and it didn't seem to have a good sync either. I also converted my cam signal to come in through the MS3X instead of onto the V3 board, made no difference once I got the VR trimpots adjusted. My sensor is a hall sensor though, could this be causing grief?
At a bit of a loss as to what the issue could be. Since this log and MSQ were taken I have upgraded my MS3 to 1.1 Alpha 18 and the issue is unchanged.
Attached below are my MSQ and a log where the picture above was taken from along with a composite log from today.
The issue is that the VVT angle bounces back and forth between ~295* and ~270*. I'm pretty sure the cam isn't moving 20* since the car idles and runs perfectly. A composite log seems to confirm this. I worked out that at 1,000RPM 20* is about 3ms. I don't see 3ms of jitter anywhere in the log, but this is the first time I've really dug into one. Unplugging the solenoid has no affect on the numbers bouncing around. If I set the duty cycle to 100 the car stalls as expected. If I enable PID control the car surges badly while the cam tries to move to compensate for non-existant movement then eventually stalls. At the very end of the attached log I stall the car by advancing the cam and you can see a brief interval where the angle is >300*.
So far I tried to change from rising edge triggers to falling edge triggers as I saw other 99+ Miatas set up with falling edge. Couldn't get the car to start, sounded like it was very badly timed. Popping through the intake, kicking back the starter, etc and it didn't seem to have a good sync either. I also converted my cam signal to come in through the MS3X instead of onto the V3 board, made no difference once I got the VR trimpots adjusted. My sensor is a hall sensor though, could this be causing grief?
At a bit of a loss as to what the issue could be. Since this log and MSQ were taken I have upgraded my MS3 to 1.1 Alpha 18 and the issue is unchanged.
Attached below are my MSQ and a log where the picture above was taken from along with a composite log from today.
Re: 2005 Miata VVT angle not steady
One datapoint I forgot to mention. I originally had a 2001 motor that met an early demise. The issue was present on that motor as well. When I changed motors I put on a new cam sensor but kept the same crank sensor.
Re: 2005 Miata VVT angle not steady
I can reproduce this on a JimStim and I have a 2 input scope with me. Is there any data I can collect? Looking at the scope trace the cam signal appears to not change phase in relation to the crank signlal.
If this isn't an analog issue with my input circuits I notice that the phase does change if you look at the 1 tooth vs 2 tooth cam, could the software be getting confused at which tooth it is working on?
If this isn't an analog issue with my input circuits I notice that the phase does change if you look at the 1 tooth vs 2 tooth cam, could the software be getting confused at which tooth it is working on?
Re: 2005 Miata VVT angle not steady
can you post a screen shot of "log crank and cam"?
Re: 2005 Miata VVT angle not steady
CSV attached as well. It's big so I linked it. This is from the stim, not my Miata, I have everything on the bench at the moment.
http://i.imgur.com/ydyhU.png
Here is a blurry screenshot of the crank and cam as the CPU sees it.
http://i.imgur.com/ydyhU.png
Here is a blurry screenshot of the crank and cam as the CPU sees it.
Re: 2005 Miata VVT angle not steady
I was hoping to see the actual sensors on the car. there have been known problems running the miata sensors rising edge.
Re: 2005 Miata VVT angle not steady
I knew something looked jacked while reading through your cam/crank input issue thread. I was comparing the size of my double cam pulse to your double cam pulse, mine is way larger.
http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 9&start=40
If you look at this diagram. I'm not sure that this is my current issue, but it makes me think that you may not be able to run a 2001+ Miata in rising edge and use the VVT since the larger double cam pulse section will cross a crank tooth before the cam hits max advance. This may also be the reason that I can't keep my motor running when I advance the cam, even if I'm at 4-5k RPM when I advance it. I haven't troubleshot that much though because of the large issue of "can't set my min_angle properly."
http://www.msextra.com/forums/download/ ... p?id=16717
So then the next question is, do you know what kind of input circuit(s) I need to build to make falling edge work?
http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 9&start=40
If you look at this diagram. I'm not sure that this is my current issue, but it makes me think that you may not be able to run a 2001+ Miata in rising edge and use the VVT since the larger double cam pulse section will cross a crank tooth before the cam hits max advance. This may also be the reason that I can't keep my motor running when I advance the cam, even if I'm at 4-5k RPM when I advance it. I haven't troubleshot that much though because of the large issue of "can't set my min_angle properly."
http://www.msextra.com/forums/download/ ... p?id=16717
So then the next question is, do you know what kind of input circuit(s) I need to build to make falling edge work?
-
- Site Admin
- Posts: 39615
- Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 1:34 am
- Location: Birmingham, UK
- Contact:
Re: 2005 Miata VVT angle not steady
The JimStim cannot be expected to 100% replicate the signals from the engine. So if you are seeing this "problem" of bouncing angles on the stim, I wouldn't worry about it.
The JimStim pattern for Miata was created long before I knew that the engine could have VVT and the exact phasing of the cam pulses was relevant.
James
The JimStim pattern for Miata was created long before I knew that the engine could have VVT and the exact phasing of the cam pulses was relevant.
James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk
My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
New users, please read the "Forum Help Page".
My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
New users, please read the "Forum Help Page".
Re: 2005 Miata VVT angle not steady
why do you need to run in rising edge?FatKao wrote:I knew something looked jacked while reading through your cam/crank input issue thread. I was comparing the size of my double cam pulse to your double cam pulse, mine is way larger.
http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 9&start=40
If you look at this diagram. I'm not sure that this is my current issue, but it makes me think that you may not be able to run a 2001+ Miata in rising edge and use the VVT since the larger double cam pulse section will cross a crank tooth before the cam hits max advance. This may also be the reason that I can't keep my motor running when I advance the cam, even if I'm at 4-5k RPM when I advance it. I haven't troubleshot that much though because of the large issue of "can't set my min_angle properly."
http://www.msextra.com/forums/download/ ... p?id=16717
So then the next question is, do you know what kind of input circuit(s) I need to build to make falling edge work?
the motor won't run with much advance at idle--that's not a trigger issue. try holding RPM at 3000 or so and advance and it should work fine.
You want the proper circuits, look at Frank Devocht's westfield 99 motor build:
http://westfieldmx5.devocht.com/megasquirt/99-05-ms2/
Scroll down until you see this image:
Re: 2005 Miata VVT angle not steady
I have a few theories on why I need to run rising edge, the main one being that when the cam is at full advance the first tooth of the double signal will cross a crank tooth. As far as I've understood reading the VVT thread that is a pretty big no-no for the code be able to handle. When trying to advance the cam and have it work I was always > 4k RPM, usually closer to 5k. Now that I have an idea of what the potential problem may be I'll know what to look for. Should be fairly easy to verify.
Are there any specific datapoints I should collect while I'm messing around tonight?
Re JimStim and cam phasing
Even though the specific phase of the cam and crank signals isn't relevant the phase of the signals the JimStim outputs is consistent, shouldn't the angle measurement indicate that?
Re that input circuit. I think I'll mock it up on a separate board and see if it helps up, it's too close to the track day season to tear into my setup that much.
Are there any specific datapoints I should collect while I'm messing around tonight?
Re JimStim and cam phasing
Even though the specific phase of the cam and crank signals isn't relevant the phase of the signals the JimStim outputs is consistent, shouldn't the angle measurement indicate that?
Re that input circuit. I think I'll mock it up on a separate board and see if it helps up, it's too close to the track day season to tear into my setup that much.
-
- Site Admin
- Posts: 39615
- Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 1:34 am
- Location: Birmingham, UK
- Contact:
Re: 2005 Miata VVT angle not steady
Your testing indicates that it isn't !FatKao wrote:Even though the specific phase of the cam and crank signals isn't relevant the phase of the signals the JimStim outputs is consistent, shouldn't the angle measurement indicate that?
James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk
My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
New users, please read the "Forum Help Page".
My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
New users, please read the "Forum Help Page".
Re: 2005 Miata VVT angle not steady
In case someone comes across this in a search.
I built Abe's NB input circuit and switched the car to falling edge instead of rising edge. Syncs up and the indicated VVT angle seems correct.
I built Abe's NB input circuit and switched the car to falling edge instead of rising edge. Syncs up and the indicated VVT angle seems correct.