S54 dual VANOS VVT
Moderators: jsmcortina, muythaibxr
-
- Experienced MS/Extra'er
- Posts: 256
- Joined: Sun May 02, 2004 6:39 pm
- Location: Reykjavik, Iceland
- Contact:
Re: S54 dual VANOS VVT
Any updates on this front? I am helping someone run an S50B32 on an MS3-PRO and we cannot get the VANOS working properly. We are using the HSD4 box to drive the four cam solenoids.
By turning on angle checking and tooth filter and setting the angle range up I was able to get stable readings on both cam angles (but with both cam angle error indicators flashing), but my problem is that the strategy for controlling the dual solenoids seems wrong, no matter what I do with the PID parameters I absolutely cannot get the cam angle to stabilise. It will just swing past the target and the only thing that changing the PID parameters accomplishes is changing the rate at which it oscillates. I tried PWM frequencies of 100Hz and 30Hz, neither behaved any different.
I would like to know if anyone has this working well at all.
As far as I know, in the stock configuration, the solenoids will not have duty cycles in inverse of each other, so you will definitely never have both running at 50% when close to target, but rather they will both run either close to 100% or close to 0% when at the target, and then the advance solenoid or retard solenoid will progressively energise as the cam runs away from the target. At least this is how this is implemented in another EMS I have had the displeasure of configuring S50B32 VANOS on, and there it actually works perfectly.
Baldur
By turning on angle checking and tooth filter and setting the angle range up I was able to get stable readings on both cam angles (but with both cam angle error indicators flashing), but my problem is that the strategy for controlling the dual solenoids seems wrong, no matter what I do with the PID parameters I absolutely cannot get the cam angle to stabilise. It will just swing past the target and the only thing that changing the PID parameters accomplishes is changing the rate at which it oscillates. I tried PWM frequencies of 100Hz and 30Hz, neither behaved any different.
I would like to know if anyone has this working well at all.
As far as I know, in the stock configuration, the solenoids will not have duty cycles in inverse of each other, so you will definitely never have both running at 50% when close to target, but rather they will both run either close to 100% or close to 0% when at the target, and then the advance solenoid or retard solenoid will progressively energise as the cam runs away from the target. At least this is how this is implemented in another EMS I have had the displeasure of configuring S50B32 VANOS on, and there it actually works perfectly.
Baldur
- Attachments
-
- S50B32-1.5.0.msq
- (286.3 KiB) Downloaded 36 times
-
- 2017-11-05_13.47.23.msl
- Intake cam swinging past target.
- (162.29 KiB) Downloaded 35 times
Baldur Gislason
-
- Super MS/Extra'er
- Posts: 855
- Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2010 6:33 am
Re: S54 dual VANOS VVT
I did an install with ms3 and it works perfectly
-
- Experienced MS/Extra'er
- Posts: 256
- Joined: Sun May 02, 2004 6:39 pm
- Location: Reykjavik, Iceland
- Contact:
Re: S54 dual VANOS VVT
On what exact engine model? Care to share your configuration?AbatelliCristian wrote:I did an install with ms3 and it works perfectly
Baldur Gislason
-
- Super MS/Extra'er
- Posts: 3653
- Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 8:40 pm
- Location: Virginia Beach, VA
- Contact:
Re: S54 dual VANOS VVT
I have one S54 installation.
Note for some reason updating firmware on working M54 installations required complete retuning of the cam PID.
Not sure why.
I can find my S54 msq but it is likely to be older firmware as the car and owner moved away. I'm also not confident it's helpful as I don't know how close the cam patterns are to S50B32.
I made my own driver circuit.
Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
Note for some reason updating firmware on working M54 installations required complete retuning of the cam PID.
Not sure why.
I can find my S54 msq but it is likely to be older firmware as the car and owner moved away. I'm also not confident it's helpful as I don't know how close the cam patterns are to S50B32.
I made my own driver circuit.
Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
Peter Florance
PF Tuning
81 BMW Euro 528i ESP Car
60-2 Wheel LS2 Coils, Low Z Inj
Co-Driver 1999 BMW E46 DSP car.
PF Tuning
81 BMW Euro 528i ESP Car
60-2 Wheel LS2 Coils, Low Z Inj
Co-Driver 1999 BMW E46 DSP car.
-
- Experienced MS/Extra'er
- Posts: 256
- Joined: Sun May 02, 2004 6:39 pm
- Location: Reykjavik, Iceland
- Contact:
Re: S54 dual VANOS VVT
The S50B32 has 6 evenly spaced teeth on inlet cam and 6 + 1 on exhaust cam.
Baldur Gislason
-
- Super MS/Extra'er
- Posts: 3653
- Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 8:40 pm
- Location: Virginia Beach, VA
- Contact:
Re: S54 dual VANOS VVT
Which is different from S54?baldur wrote:The S50B32 has 6 evenly spaced teeth on inlet cam and 6 + 1 on exhaust cam.
Peter Florance
PF Tuning
81 BMW Euro 528i ESP Car
60-2 Wheel LS2 Coils, Low Z Inj
Co-Driver 1999 BMW E46 DSP car.
PF Tuning
81 BMW Euro 528i ESP Car
60-2 Wheel LS2 Coils, Low Z Inj
Co-Driver 1999 BMW E46 DSP car.
-
- Experienced MS/Extra'er
- Posts: 256
- Joined: Sun May 02, 2004 6:39 pm
- Location: Reykjavik, Iceland
- Contact:
Re: S54 dual VANOS VVT
I am not sure. Possibly. But my problem isn't really with the cam decoder, I can get it reading the cam angles just fine. I just cannot get it to stay on target, no matter what I put in for the PID it just wants to swing right past the target angle.Peter Florance wrote:Which is different from S54?baldur wrote:The S50B32 has 6 evenly spaced teeth on inlet cam and 6 + 1 on exhaust cam.
Baldur Gislason
-
- Super MS/Extra'er
- Posts: 3653
- Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 8:40 pm
- Location: Virginia Beach, VA
- Contact:
Re: S54 dual VANOS VVT
From memory, yours looks different.
I'll post mine when I get home.
I'll post mine when I get home.
Peter Florance
PF Tuning
81 BMW Euro 528i ESP Car
60-2 Wheel LS2 Coils, Low Z Inj
Co-Driver 1999 BMW E46 DSP car.
PF Tuning
81 BMW Euro 528i ESP Car
60-2 Wheel LS2 Coils, Low Z Inj
Co-Driver 1999 BMW E46 DSP car.
-
- Experienced MS/Extra'er
- Posts: 256
- Joined: Sun May 02, 2004 6:39 pm
- Location: Reykjavik, Iceland
- Contact:
Re: S54 dual VANOS VVT
To sum it up: dual solenoids do not work anything like a single solenoid VVTi system. When the cam is on target, both solenoids should be at or near 0% duty cycle. Not 50%. I think I'm going to try implementing this using general purpose outputs for the solenoids.
Baldur Gislason
-
- Super MS/Extra'er
- Posts: 3653
- Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 8:40 pm
- Location: Virginia Beach, VA
- Contact:
Re: S54 dual VANOS VVT
Does the software not work that way?baldur wrote:To sum it up: dual solenoids do not work anything like a single solenoid VVTi system. When the cam is on target, both solenoids should be at or near 0% duty cycle. Not 50%. I think I'm going to try implementing this using general purpose outputs for the solenoids.
Peter Florance
PF Tuning
81 BMW Euro 528i ESP Car
60-2 Wheel LS2 Coils, Low Z Inj
Co-Driver 1999 BMW E46 DSP car.
PF Tuning
81 BMW Euro 528i ESP Car
60-2 Wheel LS2 Coils, Low Z Inj
Co-Driver 1999 BMW E46 DSP car.
-
- Experienced MS/Extra'er
- Posts: 256
- Joined: Sun May 02, 2004 6:39 pm
- Location: Reykjavik, Iceland
- Contact:
Re: S54 dual VANOS VVT
I am not sure. This functionality is completely undocumented as far as I can tell.Peter Florance wrote:Does the software not work that way?baldur wrote:To sum it up: dual solenoids do not work anything like a single solenoid VVTi system. When the cam is on target, both solenoids should be at or near 0% duty cycle. Not 50%. I think I'm going to try implementing this using general purpose outputs for the solenoids.
Baldur Gislason
-
- Site Admin
- Posts: 39619
- Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 1:34 am
- Location: Birmingham, UK
- Contact:
Re: S54 dual VANOS VVT
Yes.Peter Florance wrote:Does the software not work that way?baldur wrote:To sum it up: dual solenoids do not work anything like a single solenoid VVTi system. When the cam is on target, both solenoids should be at or near 0% duty cycle. Not 50%. I think I'm going to try implementing this using general purpose outputs for the solenoids.
James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk
My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
New users, please read the "Forum Help Page".
My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
New users, please read the "Forum Help Page".
-
- Super MS/Extra'er
- Posts: 3653
- Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 8:40 pm
- Location: Virginia Beach, VA
- Contact:
Re: S54 dual VANOS VVT
That's what I thought.jsmcortina wrote:Yes.Peter Florance wrote:Does the software not work that way?baldur wrote:To sum it up: dual solenoids do not work anything like a single solenoid VVTi system. When the cam is on target, both solenoids should be at or near 0% duty cycle. Not 50%. I think I'm going to try implementing this using general purpose outputs for the solenoids.
James
It worked much better than M54; I attributed to oil pressure in both directions rather than spring
Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
Peter Florance
PF Tuning
81 BMW Euro 528i ESP Car
60-2 Wheel LS2 Coils, Low Z Inj
Co-Driver 1999 BMW E46 DSP car.
PF Tuning
81 BMW Euro 528i ESP Car
60-2 Wheel LS2 Coils, Low Z Inj
Co-Driver 1999 BMW E46 DSP car.
-
- Experienced MS/Extra'er
- Posts: 256
- Joined: Sun May 02, 2004 6:39 pm
- Location: Reykjavik, Iceland
- Contact:
Re: S54 dual VANOS VVT
I have in fact got this working reasonably well now using S54 mode. Turned out there is a dumb feature I had enabled without understanding how it was implemented which was the "hold duty" setting and it was making the duty cycle bounce all over the place when it reached the target angle.
I'd like to complain about the use of 8 bit values for tuning PID sensitivity though. I do not feel it gives me anywhere close to the value range needed to cover the different possible setups. I maxed the P gain on the inlet cam at 200, and that seems to be about what it needs. I have a hunch that the P setting for exhaust does not do anything at all, or at least I could not detect any change in duty cycle on the exhaust control when I changed the P gain there, and I sorely need more P gain on the exhaust cam, it likes to wander off target sometimes while the intake is stable.
Another peculiarity is that while the engine has no problems starting up, I always have the "Cam fault" indicator on while it's running. Does this indicate that the ECU is not getting cam sync and running in waste spark or semi sequential fuelling?
I'd like to complain about the use of 8 bit values for tuning PID sensitivity though. I do not feel it gives me anywhere close to the value range needed to cover the different possible setups. I maxed the P gain on the inlet cam at 200, and that seems to be about what it needs. I have a hunch that the P setting for exhaust does not do anything at all, or at least I could not detect any change in duty cycle on the exhaust control when I changed the P gain there, and I sorely need more P gain on the exhaust cam, it likes to wander off target sometimes while the intake is stable.
Another peculiarity is that while the engine has no problems starting up, I always have the "Cam fault" indicator on while it's running. Does this indicate that the ECU is not getting cam sync and running in waste spark or semi sequential fuelling?
- Attachments
-
- S50B32-1.5.1.msq
- (287.52 KiB) Downloaded 53 times
-
- 2017-11-20_22.13.28.msl
- (397.81 KiB) Downloaded 31 times
Baldur Gislason