S54 dual VANOS VVT

Testing and development of Megasquirt 3

Moderators: jsmcortina, muythaibxr

Re: S54 dual VANOS VVT

Postby baldur » Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:38 am

Any updates on this front? I am helping someone run an S50B32 on an MS3-PRO and we cannot get the VANOS working properly. We are using the HSD4 box to drive the four cam solenoids.
By turning on angle checking and tooth filter and setting the angle range up I was able to get stable readings on both cam angles (but with both cam angle error indicators flashing), but my problem is that the strategy for controlling the dual solenoids seems wrong, no matter what I do with the PID parameters I absolutely cannot get the cam angle to stabilise. It will just swing past the target and the only thing that changing the PID parameters accomplishes is changing the rate at which it oscillates. I tried PWM frequencies of 100Hz and 30Hz, neither behaved any different.

I would like to know if anyone has this working well at all.

As far as I know, in the stock configuration, the solenoids will not have duty cycles in inverse of each other, so you will definitely never have both running at 50% when close to target, but rather they will both run either close to 100% or close to 0% when at the target, and then the advance solenoid or retard solenoid will progressively energise as the cam runs away from the target. At least this is how this is implemented in another EMS I have had the displeasure of configuring S50B32 VANOS on, and there it actually works perfectly.

Baldur
Attachments
S50B32-1.5.0.msq
(286.3 KiB) Downloaded 8 times
2017-11-05_13.47.23.msl
Intake cam swinging past target.
(162.29 KiB) Downloaded 5 times
Baldur Gislason
User avatar
baldur
Experienced MS/Extra'er
 
Posts: 256
Joined: Sun May 02, 2004 6:39 pm
Location: Reykjavik, Iceland

Re: S54 dual VANOS VVT

Postby AbatelliCristian » Sun Nov 05, 2017 2:01 pm

I did an install with ms3 and it works perfectly
AbatelliCristian
Master MS/Extra'er
 
Posts: 787
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2010 6:33 am

Re: S54 dual VANOS VVT

Postby baldur » Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:20 pm

AbatelliCristian wrote:I did an install with ms3 and it works perfectly

On what exact engine model? Care to share your configuration?
Baldur Gislason
User avatar
baldur
Experienced MS/Extra'er
 
Posts: 256
Joined: Sun May 02, 2004 6:39 pm
Location: Reykjavik, Iceland

Re: S54 dual VANOS VVT

Postby Peter Florance » Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:48 am

I have one S54 installation.

Note for some reason updating firmware on working M54 installations required complete retuning of the cam PID.
Not sure why.

I can find my S54 msq but it is likely to be older firmware as the car and owner moved away. I'm also not confident it's helpful as I don't know how close the cam patterns are to S50B32.

I made my own driver circuit.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
Peter Florance
PF Tuning
81 BMW Euro 528i ESP Car
60-2 Wheel LS2 Coils, Low Z Inj
Co-Driver 1999 BMW E46 DSP car.
User avatar
Peter Florance
Super MS/Extra'er
 
Posts: 3619
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 8:40 pm
Location: Virginia Beach, VA

Re: S54 dual VANOS VVT

Postby baldur » Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:22 am

The S50B32 has 6 evenly spaced teeth on inlet cam and 6 + 1 on exhaust cam.
Baldur Gislason
User avatar
baldur
Experienced MS/Extra'er
 
Posts: 256
Joined: Sun May 02, 2004 6:39 pm
Location: Reykjavik, Iceland

Re: S54 dual VANOS VVT

Postby Peter Florance » Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:40 pm

baldur wrote:The S50B32 has 6 evenly spaced teeth on inlet cam and 6 + 1 on exhaust cam.

Which is different from S54?
Peter Florance
PF Tuning
81 BMW Euro 528i ESP Car
60-2 Wheel LS2 Coils, Low Z Inj
Co-Driver 1999 BMW E46 DSP car.
User avatar
Peter Florance
Super MS/Extra'er
 
Posts: 3619
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 8:40 pm
Location: Virginia Beach, VA

Re: S54 dual VANOS VVT

Postby baldur » Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:14 pm

Peter Florance wrote:
baldur wrote:The S50B32 has 6 evenly spaced teeth on inlet cam and 6 + 1 on exhaust cam.

Which is different from S54?


I am not sure. Possibly. But my problem isn't really with the cam decoder, I can get it reading the cam angles just fine. I just cannot get it to stay on target, no matter what I put in for the PID it just wants to swing right past the target angle.
Baldur Gislason
User avatar
baldur
Experienced MS/Extra'er
 
Posts: 256
Joined: Sun May 02, 2004 6:39 pm
Location: Reykjavik, Iceland

Re: S54 dual VANOS VVT

Postby Peter Florance » Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:36 pm

From memory, yours looks different.
I'll post mine when I get home.
Peter Florance
PF Tuning
81 BMW Euro 528i ESP Car
60-2 Wheel LS2 Coils, Low Z Inj
Co-Driver 1999 BMW E46 DSP car.
User avatar
Peter Florance
Super MS/Extra'er
 
Posts: 3619
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 8:40 pm
Location: Virginia Beach, VA

Re: S54 dual VANOS VVT

Postby baldur » Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:49 pm

To sum it up: dual solenoids do not work anything like a single solenoid VVTi system. When the cam is on target, both solenoids should be at or near 0% duty cycle. Not 50%. I think I'm going to try implementing this using general purpose outputs for the solenoids.
Baldur Gislason
User avatar
baldur
Experienced MS/Extra'er
 
Posts: 256
Joined: Sun May 02, 2004 6:39 pm
Location: Reykjavik, Iceland

Re: S54 dual VANOS VVT

Postby Peter Florance » Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:12 pm

baldur wrote:To sum it up: dual solenoids do not work anything like a single solenoid VVTi system. When the cam is on target, both solenoids should be at or near 0% duty cycle. Not 50%. I think I'm going to try implementing this using general purpose outputs for the solenoids.


Does the software not work that way?
Peter Florance
PF Tuning
81 BMW Euro 528i ESP Car
60-2 Wheel LS2 Coils, Low Z Inj
Co-Driver 1999 BMW E46 DSP car.
User avatar
Peter Florance
Super MS/Extra'er
 
Posts: 3619
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 8:40 pm
Location: Virginia Beach, VA

Re: S54 dual VANOS VVT

Postby baldur » Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:52 pm

Peter Florance wrote:
baldur wrote:To sum it up: dual solenoids do not work anything like a single solenoid VVTi system. When the cam is on target, both solenoids should be at or near 0% duty cycle. Not 50%. I think I'm going to try implementing this using general purpose outputs for the solenoids.


Does the software not work that way?

I am not sure. This functionality is completely undocumented as far as I can tell.
Baldur Gislason
User avatar
baldur
Experienced MS/Extra'er
 
Posts: 256
Joined: Sun May 02, 2004 6:39 pm
Location: Reykjavik, Iceland

Re: S54 dual VANOS VVT

Postby jsmcortina » Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:42 pm

Peter Florance wrote:
baldur wrote:To sum it up: dual solenoids do not work anything like a single solenoid VVTi system. When the cam is on target, both solenoids should be at or near 0% duty cycle. Not 50%. I think I'm going to try implementing this using general purpose outputs for the solenoids.


Does the software not work that way?

Yes.

James
I can supply, repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

My Success story: viewtopic.php?f=104&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
jsmcortina
Site Admin
 
Posts: 33917
Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 1:34 am
Location: Birmingham, UK

Re: S54 dual VANOS VVT

Postby Peter Florance » Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:49 pm

jsmcortina wrote:
Peter Florance wrote:
baldur wrote:To sum it up: dual solenoids do not work anything like a single solenoid VVTi system. When the cam is on target, both solenoids should be at or near 0% duty cycle. Not 50%. I think I'm going to try implementing this using general purpose outputs for the solenoids.


Does the software not work that way?

Yes.

James
That's what I thought.
It worked much better than M54; I attributed to oil pressure in both directions rather than spring

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
Peter Florance
PF Tuning
81 BMW Euro 528i ESP Car
60-2 Wheel LS2 Coils, Low Z Inj
Co-Driver 1999 BMW E46 DSP car.
User avatar
Peter Florance
Super MS/Extra'er
 
Posts: 3619
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 8:40 pm
Location: Virginia Beach, VA

Re: S54 dual VANOS VVT

Postby baldur » Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:39 am

I have in fact got this working reasonably well now using S54 mode. Turned out there is a dumb feature I had enabled without understanding how it was implemented which was the "hold duty" setting and it was making the duty cycle bounce all over the place when it reached the target angle.
I'd like to complain about the use of 8 bit values for tuning PID sensitivity though. I do not feel it gives me anywhere close to the value range needed to cover the different possible setups. I maxed the P gain on the inlet cam at 200, and that seems to be about what it needs. I have a hunch that the P setting for exhaust does not do anything at all, or at least I could not detect any change in duty cycle on the exhaust control when I changed the P gain there, and I sorely need more P gain on the exhaust cam, it likes to wander off target sometimes while the intake is stable.
Another peculiarity is that while the engine has no problems starting up, I always have the "Cam fault" indicator on while it's running. Does this indicate that the ECU is not getting cam sync and running in waste spark or semi sequential fuelling?
Attachments
S50B32-1.5.1.msq
(287.52 KiB) Downloaded 2 times
2017-11-20_22.13.28.msl
(397.81 KiB) Downloaded 1 time
Baldur Gislason
User avatar
baldur
Experienced MS/Extra'er
 
Posts: 256
Joined: Sun May 02, 2004 6:39 pm
Location: Reykjavik, Iceland

Previous

Return to MS3 Development

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: tpsretard2 and 1 guest