Trigger angle alteration for 36-2-2-2 (MS3-PRO)

[spyrstas]

Heys guys, my name is Spyro from Greece. I have a RX8 with a swapped 13bre engine and have run into a major road block. In order for me to have the tach, powersteering, tb, etc to function correctly I| need to have a 36-2-2-2 trigger pattern. In the past I simply ran the stock mazda cas which I was not happy with. I have since bought the ms3 pro and a rx8 trigger kit so I can have only one trigger source. The major problem is that the rx8 front cover is not compatable with my engine, therefore I don't have a vr sensor mount at the position-which is why I bought the FFE trigger kit which is a straight bolt on deal. Unfortunately the sensor is at the 3:00 position instead of the ~5:00(RX8). I know that I should be using a trigger angle of ~90degrees, the ms3 unfortunately only gives you 20 to work with. Now this isn't only a problem for me, this is a problem that any rotary user would run into using a 36-2-2-2 trigger, it would need to be set any from 60-120degrees. Could someone please rewrite the code to allow any trigger angle for this pattern. Hopefully I have not spent so much time and money buying and setting up this ecu, and buying the trigger kit for nothing... Thank you very much!

[jsmcortina]

Why is the VR sensor in the wrong place? Isn't the trigger wheel also phased differently to match?
I'd be back in touch with the supplier to find a way to get the correct phasing.

How do other aftermarket ECUs deal with this?

James

[Matt Cramer]

I was on the phone with this customer earlier - apparently there's a common aftermarket trigger conversion for pre-Renesis versions of the 13B that got the trigger angle horribly and inexplicably wrong, and Haltech (and possibly others) simply did not put a limit in the trigger angle adjustment on their version of 36-2-2-2 mode.

[spyrstas]

Well it's not that they got it wrong, there's not really a right or wrong I'm guessing. A stock FD cas setup comes up with a trigger angle of about 65degrees, and the stock FC with the electronic distributor style cas also is about 60degrees. The company which makes high quality trigger kits for our cars has many different setups. The trigger angle on them is usually in the range of 60-90degrees. Again like I said stock setups are roughly in this area sometimes upto 70degrees. They did not have a kit for my needs so they made a kit using their FC/FD style trigger kit with a renesis wheel since I am not using the stock rx8 front cover(I deleted the FC distributor cas). Here's a picture of my setup, and making a new kit is not something they are interested in. I have worked with many haltechs, although only the newer platinum series allows for the RX8 pattern. I have had the chance to install this same cas kit on a p1000 and they do allow for any trigger angle using rx8 wheel. There are other rotary guys that want to upgrade to a better style wheel(not to mention oem) but only the RX8 had the vr sensor in that position. Here's a pic of my setup: http://www.flickr.com/photos/108697029@N03/12838589165/

[jsmcortina]

Nope...

"Trigger angle/offset" with the built in wheels means "difference from standard" - they should normally be set to zero. So if you think you need to enter 90 degrees, then it means that the sensor/wheel phasing is 90 degrees away from the Mazda fitment.

James

[spyrstas]

So with what you are saying is that it's a rx8 wheel with a built trigger angle setting-and it's right? The ecu is said as being capable of running a 36-2-2-2, right? In the settings it's labeled as "36-2-2-2", not rx8 wheel, not Mazda wheel, and not Subaru wheel-just 36-2-2-2. It' basically the same as the generic trigger patterns, they also use a trigger angle offset starting off at about 60deg. I'm stuck not being able to start up my car, after a very long build.

[muythaibxr]

So we wrote that wheel mode with the rx8 and subaru setups. We allowed a specific amount of adjustability for those, but really those were the setups we designed for.

The vendor that you got the wheel from decided to do it in a non-standard way when compared to the Subaru and Mazda wheels. That is *not* a code problem.

Now, in the interest of supporting you and other users that end up with this wheel setup, we can add support for that wheel phasing, but that is a major change to our code, which means it won't happen until after 1.3.0 releases.

I'm sure you'd rather have it not work wrong and cause other issues... we'll need some time to verify that we don't cause any issues by allowing what you need.

Ken

[spyrstas]

Ok, thank you. I wasn't trying to be rude in any way. I just see this as being better for other people who wish to have this option, and better for your product. Now, since I don't really have a full grasp as to how your program works with the built in patterns. Since you state that it should be zero, then I don't really need to put the offset at 90degrees. What I need is the difference between where my sensor sits at the~ 3'o clock position, and where the stock rx8 sensor sits at ~4:30 position. Which comes out to roughly 45degrees-give or take 5-10degrees. Muythaiboxer, when you say that release, just curious, how often do they come out? I was kind of rushing lately to get this all done because where expecting our first child on Easter and also probably moving back to the states in a sometime in the summer. "I'm sure you'd rather have it not work wrong and cause other issues... we'll need some time to verify that we don't cause any issues by allowing what you need." This is exactly why I said to myself I'll get a good standard pattern bolt on trigger kit and a good ecu that'll support the pattern I chose-seeing as to I already totally lost a built engine to ignition timing/zeroing.
Thanks again.

[jsmcortina]

The actual sensor position doesn't matter - it is the phasing between the pattern on the wheel and the sensor.

So... if the aftermarket kit moved the sensor, that could be ok, IF THEY ALSO MOVED THE WHEEL.

That is, if they moved both by the same angle, then the trigger offset (adjustment) would still be near zero.

James

[FullFunction]

apparently there's a common aftermarket trigger conversion for pre-Renesis versions of the 13B that got the trigger angle horribly and inexplicably wrong, and Haltech (and possibly others) simply did not put a limit in the trigger angle adjustment on their version of 36-2-2-2 mode.

I'm a bit confused as to how or what you think is horribly or inexplicably wrong? (unless there's another trigger mfg, all of our trigger angles fall between 60 and 100 for a reason)

Anyways...
This was a one off trigger setup that was built using pieces from other engines/setups (for cost sake), and wasn't designed around the limitations of the ms3 software. It will probably be the only one like it.
Haltech doesn't have this limitation because they specified it in terms of trigger angle not w.r.t. the OE angle.

I wouldn't want anyone to have to do any intensive coding to allow this since it's a rare occurrence but if it was simply changing +/- 20 to +/- X , then by all means.

Spyro, give me a call and we'll just do a custom wheel if it's faster.

Thanks for your help Matt.

[jsmcortina]

the limitations of the ms3 software..

Please read the posts above.
This isn't a "limitation" - the wheel decoder was designed for RX8 and Subaru 36-2-2-2 implementations. If you install the sensor and wheel with the standard phasing, the decoder will work as designed.

James

[muythaibxr]

I'm a bit confused as to how or what you think is horribly or inexplicably wrong? (unless there's another trigger mfg, all of our trigger angles fall between 60 and 100 for a reason)

"Wrong" is probably the wrong way to put it. The way I put it is that we made our code work (purposely) with the standard angles used on OEM setups from Mazda and Subaru.

Anyways...
This was a one off trigger setup that was built using pieces from other engines/setups (for cost sake), and wasn't designed around the limitations of the ms3 software. It will probably be the only one like it.
Haltech doesn't have this limitation because they specified it in terms of trigger angle not w.r.t. the OE angle.

I wouldn't say this is a "limitation" of the ms3 software. We designed our code around the known uses of this wheel on the engines that we know use it. This isn't a normal or standard wheel that's used on a huge number of OEM setups like 36-1, nor is it really a generic wheel since the missing tooth pattern is strange. So we wrote a custom decoder for it (that still uses EVERY TOOTH on the wheel to set timing) based on known uses of it.

EDIT: And what do you mean by trigger angle anyway? Does Haltech let you set tooth #1 angle or do they use something else for trigger angle? IF it's based on the angle that the engine is at when tooth#1 passes the sensor, then which tooth do they call #1?

I wouldn't want anyone to have to do any intensive coding to allow this since it's a rare occurrence but if it was simply changing +/- 20 to +/- X , then by all means.

The problem isn't the code. It's probably not that "intensive" to change the +/- 20 to +/- X. But it hasn't been tested that way. We would need to test it that way to make sure it works. That's not something we want to do in a code rev we're about to release. However, as soon as 1.3.0 releases we'll start releasing test code for 1.3.1, and this change (which I already said we'd be willing to do based on other people wanting to use this trigger setup) could be incorporated there.

Ken

[FullFunction]

I merely call it a limitation because it is limiting the allowable angles/patterns, reason or not. It's not bad since it's an unusual case but still is a limitation (similar to Haltech not allowing rotary to use 36-1).

EDIT: And what do you mean by trigger angle anyway? Does Haltech let you set tooth #1 angle or do they use something else for trigger angle? IF it's based on the angle that the engine is at when tooth#1 passes the sensor, then which tooth do they call #1?

That's quite literally what Haltech labels it as. I don't recall exactly how they have it coded but there must be a given tooth which is referenced to allow it to vary the trigger angle.

The reason why this may not ever come up again is because we only sell 36-1 to MS users..

Thanks for your great support Matt/Ken.

[jsmcortina]

Has it actually been established that this wheel and sensor combination _doesn't_ work with MS3 as-is ? We might be having a debate over nothing?

Perhaps this is just speculation because of the setting name "trigger angle" being a different number? It seems very likely that the two ECUs have a totally different meaning for that number.

MS2/3 can use any reasonable trigger wheel with rotary. The wheel type isn't linked to the rotary setting. i.e. normal wheels like 12-1, 36-1, 60-2 all work.

James

[FullFunction]

mmm no lol.

I'm guessing it will be close but just out of bounds.
(by haltech's angle) Off the top of my head the stock wheel angle is 60-70 deg and that sensor is 30ish+ deg from the rx8 oem sensor.

[sportage4x4]

FWIW, 36-2-2-2 also works as coded just fine on the OE Suzuki implementation.

[muythaibxr]

My guess is that all the OEMs that use it position it the same since they probably all work with the same ECU, or at least the same decoder.

[spyrstas]

EDIT: And what do you mean by trigger angle anyway? Does Haltech let you set tooth #1 angle or do they use something else for trigger angle? IF it's based on the angle that the engine is at when tooth#1 passes the sensor, then which tooth do they call #1?

From what my puiny mind can comprehend is that the difference between the haltech and ms3 is that haltech has written a base pattern in which you specify the TRIGGER ANGLE(at whatever position that may be) as opposed to ms3 where the code has the built in/written angle and you specify the trigger angle/OFFSET if needed for any variance. Anyhow, I'll try zeroing it out today as I was put off yesterday with the warning window.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/108697029@N03/12851885035/

[juansh2385]

EDIT: And what do you mean by trigger angle anyway? Does Haltech let you set tooth #1 angle or do they use something else for trigger angle? IF it's based on the angle that the engine is at when tooth#1 passes the sensor, then which tooth do they call #1?

From what my puiny mind can comprehend is that the difference between the haltech and ms3 is that haltech has written a base pattern in which you specify the TRIGGER ANGLE(at whatever position that may be) as opposed to ms3 where the code has the built in/written angle and you specify the trigger angle/OFFSET if needed for any variance. Anyhow, I'll try zeroing it out today as I was put off yesterday with the warning window.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/108697029@N03/12851885035/

I think you have not understand what the dev are trying to tell you. The problem is not the position of the sensor is the phase that position represent.
Example In the link to the photo of the trigger that you post are both of those picture in reference to an engine in tdc?
What is important is that you put your engine in tdc and that the sensor no mater in what position is in the engine but that it align with the same tooth that it would in a stock engine with that wheel. I am not sure what tooth it is suppose to align in tdc but ask here and if your so you can verify the correct alignment if it align with that specific teeth you wont have to do anything else and the code will just work or with the options that you have been presented.

1.Relocate the sensor to the correct teeth at tdc.
2. Ask for the custom trigger wheel with the correct alignment for the current position of the sensor.


Both options in my opinion are easy to solve.

Juan

[spyrstas]

I think you have not understand what the dev are trying to tell you. The problem is not the position of the sensor is the phase that position represent.

I understand that it's the wheel phase/correlation. It's just that they produce all their trigger kits to have roughly the same trigger angle that all rotaries have stock CAS setups(which are usually from 60+ degrees) and this specific frankenstein kit has ~90degrees trigger angle. The manufacturer will produce me another trigger wheel with a different bolt pattern to remedy this problem.