OBD2 support discussion
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OBD2 support discussion
There was mention of OBD2 over here http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 94&t=53265
I had already been reading about it just the other day.
First off, there's no way that any Megasquirt will be programmed to generate fake diagnostic results, that is likely illegal and we won't entertain it. If possible we would report "not supported" or suchlike.
For background on OBD / 2 see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On-board_diagnostics and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OBD-II_PIDs
Having read through that and with the recently developed 11bit CAN broadcasting and receiving, it would be possible to extend that to supply data in OBD2 format.
However... WHY ?
What would this realistically be used for and how valuable ($) is it? Would it bring new customers to Megasquirt?
James
I had already been reading about it just the other day.
First off, there's no way that any Megasquirt will be programmed to generate fake diagnostic results, that is likely illegal and we won't entertain it. If possible we would report "not supported" or suchlike.
For background on OBD / 2 see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On-board_diagnostics and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OBD-II_PIDs
Having read through that and with the recently developed 11bit CAN broadcasting and receiving, it would be possible to extend that to supply data in OBD2 format.
However... WHY ?
What would this realistically be used for and how valuable ($) is it? Would it bring new customers to Megasquirt?
James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk
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Re: OBD2 support discussion
I've seen OBD2 based gauges and display devices that go for ridiculously cheap, like $160 for a ScanGauge. There's a lot of off the shelf devices that could use this that are fairly common already and it would reduce the amount of hassle needed to run it.jsmcortina wrote:
Having read through that and with the recently developed 11bit CAN broadcasting and receiving, it would be possible to extend that to supply data in OBD2 format.
However... WHY ?
What would this realistically be used for and how valuable ($) is it? Would it bring new customers to Megasquirt?
James
Matt Cramer -1966 Dodge Dart slant six running on MS3X
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Re: OBD2 support discussion
Running stock dash clusters I think as well.
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OBD2 support discussion
I have seen a lot of videos with telemetry overlays. I think most (all?) those systems are OBD2 based.
Personally I don't need onboard video with telemetry, but there may be a market.
Personally I don't need onboard video with telemetry, but there may be a market.
Joachim
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Re: OBD2 support discussion
As far as I know, these use proprietary protocols not OBD2.TheSilverBuick wrote:Running stock dash clusters I think as well.
Jean
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Re: OBD2 support discussion
It might be easier and offer more choices with OBD2 but it has been done with the standard MS dataset.subwoofer wrote:I have seen a lot of videos with telemetry overlays. I think most (all?) those systems are OBD2 based.
Personally I don't need onboard video with telemetry, but there may be a market.
Jean
Re: OBD2 support discussion
In my case I can't think of a single reason I would want or need OBD2 support. Here in California I don't even entertain the thought of MSing a smog vehicle, unless its a purpose built race car. Not even close to being worth the risk of getting caught doing something CARB forbids.....WAY too costly! So other than with the specific intention of doing something fraudulent (as you clearly stated you want nothing to do with) I can't think of a single reason to do it. That may just be my opinion though.
Andrew
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Re: OBD2 support discussion
I can think of quite a few. I, personally, wouldn't use OBD-II, but there are quite a few devices out there that datalog/display/interface things, that use OBD-II for communication, so I can see how someone would want to leverage all of those options. Just because I don't use it, doesn't mean I would dismiss it so quickly.ap67et10 wrote:In my case I can't think of a single reason I would want or need OBD2 support.
James B.
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1985 Merkur XR4Ti Rally Car
MS3 3.57+MS3X+RTCC+Knock
Ford Lima 2.3 Turbo/MSD LS2 COPs/DIYAT Hall Cam Sensor/Electromotive VR Crank Sensor
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Re: OBD2 support discussion
Some thoughts I can offer. On the random occasion that I let others borrow my car , *if* something goes wrong (not saying it will - my car has been running quite happily for over 2 years - just in case) with a 30$ scan tool they can quickly tell me what is going wrong. Much easier than having them fire up a laptop and over the phone talk them through pages of gauges/tables or look at the check engine light and count led flickers.
Random side note - would be nice if the trouble codes would stay put until cleared. (even with key cycles) I once had a random engine shudder that only lasted for a few moments but came back several times over the course of a 1 minute or so. I didn't have my laptop/SD card or the check engine light hooked up. (that has since changed - I learned my lesson) Restarted the car with the laptop a little while later and it never came back. Along those same lines if would be nice if the MS would automatically start logging whatever parameters the check engine light is on for (say onto a SD card) so that the whole issue would be recorded.
Anyhow, back on topic. The use of CAN gauges would also be nice. However, with all that said, I don't know if it would attract new users or not. I think if you tried selling MS on the fact that it supports OBD2 you might get a lot of confused new comers frustrated when they learn it won't fake emissions testing for them. (or you will get those who will try to rewrite the source code (if released) to fake emissions since the majority of the code is already in place)
Random side note - would be nice if the trouble codes would stay put until cleared. (even with key cycles) I once had a random engine shudder that only lasted for a few moments but came back several times over the course of a 1 minute or so. I didn't have my laptop/SD card or the check engine light hooked up. (that has since changed - I learned my lesson) Restarted the car with the laptop a little while later and it never came back. Along those same lines if would be nice if the MS would automatically start logging whatever parameters the check engine light is on for (say onto a SD card) so that the whole issue would be recorded.
Anyhow, back on topic. The use of CAN gauges would also be nice. However, with all that said, I don't know if it would attract new users or not. I think if you tried selling MS on the fact that it supports OBD2 you might get a lot of confused new comers frustrated when they learn it won't fake emissions testing for them. (or you will get those who will try to rewrite the source code (if released) to fake emissions since the majority of the code is already in place)
Re: OBD2 support discussion
Being able to send wellness signals to other factory CAN devices (a/c, cluster, entertainment) would be nice as they often shut down or go into a limp mode if its not there
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Re: OBD2 support discussion
The issue here is to find out what the messages need to be. And there are likely not OBD2 but proprietary.prof315 wrote:Being able to send wellness signals to other factory CAN devices (a/c, cluster, entertainment) would be nice as they often shut down or go into a limp mode if its not there
Jean
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Re: OBD2 support discussion
As Jean says, OBD is about Diagnostics, not running the gauge cluster.
James
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Re: OBD2 support discussion
IMO dont bother.
Devel time is better spent elsewhere.
Devel time is better spent elsewhere.
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Re: OBD2 support discussion
I think it would be huge draw for people with applications on their phone like 'Torque' who could pull data from the OBD port and display it easily in-car.
There are no consumer level gauges available for MS, with OBD compatibility you fix that in one fell swoop.
There are no consumer level gauges available for MS, with OBD compatibility you fix that in one fell swoop.
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Re: OBD2 support discussion
I can think of 3 ways I would love to have OBD2 on my MS (just monitoring sensors)
1) For fast diagnostis if something goes wrong and I don't have a laptop hooked up. I am making an OLED display right now for that purpose but would prefer OBD, for example I can't have both TS and my serial display connected.
2) I have written a Windows Mobile 6.5 app in the past which is like a trip computer and was using it in every trip. Calculates fuel consumption ie.
3) I was using it on the race track in cojunction with Racechrono for Windows Mobile. I had G's and vss from the gps but didn't have tps, rpm and such stuff without my OBD. It has helped me a lot when analysing my laps.
Cheers
Nick
1) For fast diagnostis if something goes wrong and I don't have a laptop hooked up. I am making an OLED display right now for that purpose but would prefer OBD, for example I can't have both TS and my serial display connected.
2) I have written a Windows Mobile 6.5 app in the past which is like a trip computer and was using it in every trip. Calculates fuel consumption ie.
3) I was using it on the race track in cojunction with Racechrono for Windows Mobile. I had G's and vss from the gps but didn't have tps, rpm and such stuff without my OBD. It has helped me a lot when analysing my laps.
Cheers
Nick
Miata NBFL 1.6 (EU), GT2560R, MS2Extra, Zeitronix.
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Re: OBD2 support discussion
I use torque and a bluetooth OBDII connector on many of the newer repair jobs I do in my shop. But my personal opinion is still the same for MS. There are many display options available and most of those options support the people that are dedicated to MS and develop MS products for a living. If a customer of mine wants a tablet dash (which is something I am currently doing for a customer) I will use ShadowDash. Even if it were possible to use torque and OBDII I would not tell my customers or suggest anyone use it. I know MS attracts people that want the most affordable routes (some of the comments I have read that shows just how cheap some of the MS users are makes me sick), but there are many people that have tons of time and effort in the development of MS products and I personally want to spend my and my customers money with them, because I want MS to keep moving forward. Everyone has to make a living, and if they can't, they find something else to do. I suppose there may be some benefits to OBDII support, but I don't see any benefits that offer any major upgrades to the support that is already available. I only see those benefits undermining and cheapening the work that others are doing, and I personally don't want to see that.
Andrew
Andrew
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Re: OBD2 support discussion
Makes you sick? Get a grip.
There isn't any real choice of in car gauge unless you're competent at coding and building circuits. OBD comparability would open up more possibilities.
There isn't any real choice of in car gauge unless you're competent at coding and building circuits. OBD comparability would open up more possibilities.
2003 MX5. Coldside MP62
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MS3, RTC, & Knock board, Release 1.2. LC-1 Wideband.
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MS3, RTC, & Knock board, Release 1.2. LC-1 Wideband.
Re: OBD2 support discussion
I have a shop, I build custom cars and do regular repair work too. I deal with tight wads all the time that don't want to pay what it costs for the kind of work they are still demanding. MS is the same way, it does more than just about any other system on the market, and there are people that are willing to go out of their way to help implement and grow the brand in meaningful ways so that it stays at the top. I respect the people that pour their lives into making MS better and when I read about people that want everything now and for free....yeah it makes me sick because I know what its like be insulted like that. I love doing what I do, but I don't do it for charity, and I would expect nothing less from anyone else.....in any profession.
I have used tablets and phones for gauges, its not hard and is very effective. Plus with the CAN broadcasting and receiving modifications being made, it sounds like many of the aftermarket and factory CAN dash setups will be supported. I don't know if he still has them, but I also know James was making a CAN gauge that was programmable that worked quite well also (at least from what I read). There are plenty of different options out there for monitoring data. I also have absolutely zero code ability, but have had no problem finding effective ways to monitor everything I want to see.
Andrew
I have used tablets and phones for gauges, its not hard and is very effective. Plus with the CAN broadcasting and receiving modifications being made, it sounds like many of the aftermarket and factory CAN dash setups will be supported. I don't know if he still has them, but I also know James was making a CAN gauge that was programmable that worked quite well also (at least from what I read). There are plenty of different options out there for monitoring data. I also have absolutely zero code ability, but have had no problem finding effective ways to monitor everything I want to see.
Andrew
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Re: OBD2 support discussion
The risk of someone modify the source to fake emissions results is a real problem. Probably enough that the whole OBD2 support idea will be scrapped.Celica77 wrote:I think if you tried selling MS on the fact that it supports OBD2 you might get a lot of confused new comers frustrated when they learn it won't fake emissions testing for them. (or you will get those who will try to rewrite the source code (if released) to fake emissions since the majority of the code is already in place)
James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk
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MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
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Re: OBD2 support discussion
Hello James,
IMO OBD is not a good thing for MS products. Those products aren't designed to be used on a legal street car, so no matter with standards...
Better thing will be to ad a way to use throttle-by-wire body ;-)
Best regards,
Manu
IMO OBD is not a good thing for MS products. Those products aren't designed to be used on a legal street car, so no matter with standards...
Better thing will be to ad a way to use throttle-by-wire body ;-)
Best regards,
Manu