new ford 5.0 ti-vct

Testing and development of Megasquirt 3

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ashford
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Re: new ford 5.0 ti-vct

Post by ashford »

it took alot of trial and error(incomplete understanding of how the vvt code works) but i got the vvt on the exhaust to report 0 in the parked position and follow the target table with the right combination of settings. i wasnt aware that if more duty=retard then the min and max abs. values are swapped.

on a side note for james can the load axis for vvt be changed from fuel load to map? the engine is running maf because the changing vvt really changes ve and at wot lower engine speeds is about 60% and climbs to upper 90's from 2800-3800 rpm and makes for a narrow window to work with on the table
ashford
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Re: new ford 5.0 ti-vct

Post by ashford »

i said hell with it and hooked up the intake side for drag racing today, the advance scatters around quite a bit but functions for the most part. looking at the logs with the intake phasers unplugged mafload was about 60ish at 2000-3000rpm then shoots up to 95ish around 3500 rpm. when i logged a run from the intakes sorta working mafload was in the lower to mid 80's :shock: thats about a 1/3 more airflow at lower rpms.

took it to the track and was actually impressed for a stock f150 motor

the best run befor i started tweaking with valve angles(used near stock settings at first)
60' 2.07
1/8 8.51@84.86
1/4 13.002@111.01

26 mph in the back half is impressive.
my other car(same car merc capri) did a 9.23@152- d*** hoping for 8's guess i need a day with better track prep then i can turn it up a bit but that is next year
ashford
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Re: new ford 5.0 ti-vct

Post by ashford »

it appears i have the vvt mostly sorted out, james sent me some test code that mosty cured vvt1 and vvt3 was hardware incompatibility with sensor. i hope to do some more testing later in the day if time allows
ashford
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Re: new ford 5.0 ti-vct

Post by ashford »

i ordered a cowl hood for the car to fit the boss 5.0 intake on it.
boss.jpg
boss2.jpg
ashford
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Re: new ford 5.0 ti-vct

Post by ashford »

took it out for a spin runs quite good
http://youtu.be/HzxOhQ0SDoQ
Matt Cramer
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Re: new ford 5.0 ti-vct

Post by Matt Cramer »

Nice, I used to have a bubble window Capri myself.

Do you have a copy of your tune you can share and a data log of how well the cam control is working? I've heard some claim the cam actuators are something weird and I'd be interested in seeing if they respond like other VVT systems.
Matt Cramer -1966 Dodge Dart slant six running on MS3X
ashford
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Re: new ford 5.0 ti-vct

Post by ashford »

the vvt control is a bit screwy on these a very sensitive pid loop seems to control it ok but not quite perfect, pid tuning is something i am not all that good at anyway. my origional plan was to get the car dynotuned then post up but that may take a while now.
i have a roughed in tune here if you want a look at it
Matt Cramer
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Re: new ford 5.0 ti-vct

Post by Matt Cramer »

Nice work!
Matt Cramer -1966 Dodge Dart slant six running on MS3X
ashford
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Re: new ford 5.0 ti-vct

Post by ashford »

i am revisiting this car since the roads cleared up and i now have a hood on the car.
i have seen in the logs vvt3 going wacky occasionally, i can't see any particular pattern to itso i am assuming it is sensor or conditioning related. i was initially running this directly into the datalog in on the ms3x but the square wave at the processor was more sawtooth shaped so i moved it to the opto and appeared to be fine, now i am gong to try jeans dual vr. this needs to be external since i have no more room inside the ms3 box, also im going to use the second channel for vss which is a feature i actually need for my trans. i put a t56 magnum in it this winter and it has a reverse gate lockout and needs 12v on the solenoid to open it. how i have it right now is that it is on the brake switch but the problem is if i am slowing down in 6th gear, on the brake it WILL go into reverse as the gate feel for 5-6 literally disappears and reverse is synchronized. so im going to set an output to be active below 5mph, but wait im out of outputs!! i have boost out i can use as i no longer have a turbo but i wanted to leave it in for future use. ill use it now but i never expected to run out of outputs on the ms3.

on the downside it appears i have engine noise pulling timing at light loads. #4(or something else when #4 is in the window) is noisy at light loads. things are actually quieter under acceleration. perhaps ill buy another jy motor and put it in then build this one up.


finally a question for james, is it possible to set the cam phasing offsets at even intervals(90, 180, 270, 360* etc) in the code? not so much to align the min degrees at rest but to align them to crank degrees to account for timing chain, sprocket and other variations so that the cams are timed the same relative to the crank when the phasers are active.
ashford
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Re: new ford 5.0 ti-vct

Post by ashford »

no dice on the dual vr board it actually made it worse, vss works though. i have 10 second scope recordings of both the raw in and vr out of the signal, nothing really stood out other than the first tooth of the "3 grouping" sometimes looks like it triggers early.
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Re: new ford 5.0 ti-vct

Post by jsmcortina »

Is beta14 working better for worse for the VVT3 issue?

You mentioned that you needed to de-tune the PID numbers, is that doing the job?

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

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ashford
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Re: new ford 5.0 ti-vct

Post by ashford »

from what i can tell i have had no issues sensor wise with the filter turned on. i took a drive last night and ended up redoing the pid i went from 90-60-0 intake and 120-90-10(which seemed to work fine before) exhaust to 40-15-5 on both to curb oscilations i had on all of them, i have a bit of overshoot now but overall the car drives smooth. i took a log of last night but it is way oversized to post up
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Re: new ford 5.0 ti-vct

Post by jsmcortina »

So all is good ? Coyote is done ?

If yes, then I need to work with you to collect the hardware configuration and get it added to the manuals.

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
New users, please read the "Forum Help Page".
ashford
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Re: new ford 5.0 ti-vct

Post by ashford »

took it for a few more drives, nothing to report really other than i suck at pid loops. i think i may narrow the duty cycle window and jack up the pid numbers again just to try it out. the old settings worked great for finding targets but if the target got too far away from actual it would start oscilating.

if you want hardware info, tell me how you want it, i will be having back surgery in about a week so will not be able to work and will be bored to tears
wes kiser
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Re: new ford 5.0 ti-vct

Post by wes kiser »

Does this behave relatively "normally" with hold duty? Generally on those setups, the PID loops don't have to be all that aggressive.
86 Rx-7, swapped to 2.3 ford turbo (BW EFR 6758), ms3/ms3x sequential fuel /waste spark, ls2 coils
88 Tbird 2.3t, Microsquirt Module (PIMP), TFI ignition
ashford
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Re: new ford 5.0 ti-vct

Post by ashford »

the ticvt has basically a hold duty cycle but i changes with oil thickness, cold it is about 40% and fully warm its around 50%. the hold window i would have to say is about 2 %.

idealy i would like to see pid find the "hold" position and a delta graph for changing angle, but i don't know what use this would be for other setups
ashford
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Re: new ford 5.0 ti-vct

Post by ashford »

big dump here, one question for james though, i noticed that somewhere between initial testing and beta14 that the # of cam teeth was ungreyed and set to 1, being the coyote has 7 teeth should this be set to 7 or left at 1?

and her is my first attempt at a writeup
Setting up the coyote

basic info

firing order 1-5-4-8-6-3-7-2 this has changed from the mod motor cylinder arrangement is still the same. cylinder 1-4 on the right side(passenger side us) and 5-8 on the left side(driver side us)

cam phasers at rest(no power applied) are fully retarded on the intake and fully advanced on the exhaust to give minimal valve overlap. Actuating the phasers can give upto 50* advance on the intake and 50* retard on the exhaust cams.

Both intake cams have gear tooth sensors, both exhaust have vr sensors.

If one of these engine are going to be run on ms with working phasers, using maf is necessary. at lower rpms advancing the intake cams 40* will increase torque output 30-40%(this is not an exaggeration) .


Cam numbering is
vvt1 right side intake
vvt2 right side exhuast
vvt3 left intake
vvt4 left exhaust


Input setup

crank setup- this is the same as a modular motor or edis 8. it is a 36-1 wheel missing tooth 40* btdc, in my case (along with the mod motor) tooth #1 is 400* btdc as the cam sync signal comes a few degrees after tdc.

Use settings for normal vr sensor on the on the main board.

Cam 1- this is the right intake. Supply 12v to sensor, ground from ground plane on main db37 input to ms3x cam input. setup ths ms3x vr for hall, use the pullup jumper and set pots for 12v hall sensor. Second trigger set to rising edge(in ignition settings)

Cam 2- this is the right exhaust in my case I used a vr conditioner in the proto area an ncv1124 on a schmarts board. I used a twisted pair to the ms3 db37 put the ground on sensor ground at the db37 and the signal in at spare3. From spare 3 to vr conditioner, from vr conditioner to js10(pt5 in software). Set to rising edge if using nvc1124

cam 3- this is the left intake this goes to the opto I ran mine in through pin 36, it does not need to be on this pin it just need to get to the opto input, use a 1k resistor from 12v(s12c) to opto input, jumper d1 and d2, jumper xg1 and xg2. Install r12 and no capacitors. Next is a jumper from opto out to the ms3x card pt6. I used a jumper from my jimstim so it is rmovable, I cut one of the ends off and soldered to the bottom of the ms3x jp1 pin 16. then a solid copper wire from oto out so it can be disconnected. Set to rising edge

cam 4- this is the left exhaust, it isidentical to cam 2 jus the input is on spare 4 and vr output goes to js2(pt4) set to rising edge.

Outputs
outputs are versitile, just keep intake and exhaust pairs on same type outputs. I used mid current drivers on the ms3x.
A flyback diode is necessary on each cam solenoid, I burnt up q3 on the ms3x without diodes and control was much better with them


software settings

# of vvt= 4
decoder type= ford coyote
frequency= I scoped a factory truck and they run 300hz, I found 383works well too
on/off or variable= variable
control interval= synced to cam
range check measured angles= yes
tooth filter= I had problems with vvt3 turning this on cured it
use hold duty=off idealy this would be on but the actual hold duty cycle changes with oil thickness/pressure
nin duty cycle%= 10
max duty cycle%= 90 these can be tightened to slow down responsiveness, I need to experiment yet
table advane/retard intake=advance exhaust=retard

the rest of the settings are user preference.

Cam settings
associate the inputs and outputs with how the hardware is setup
more duty means advance for intake and retard for exhaust
for setting up the angles unplug the cam solenoids
for the intake adjust the min angle till reading is about 2 degrees(intake retards about 4 degrees at 6500rpm) and add 50(or greater) to that number and put it in the max angle. Adjusting the min angle “zeros” the displayed angle then the max angle(difference from min) is the most that will be displayed or read
e.g. if there is 30 in the min and it is zeroed on displayed angle and 50 in the max it will report nothing above 20 even if the cam is actually advance more than that.

For setting up the exhaust adjust the max angle till reported is about -1 degrees(exhaust retards about3 degrees with rpm, but retarding is shown as a positive number) then when that is found subtract 50 or more from that number and imput it into the min angle.

(note for future use it would be handy if the code were setup so the hard coded offsets for intake and exhaust pairs were 360* exactly( or a product of 90*) to accommodate for chain slack, keyway deviations etc so that they can be degreed identically whether or not they match at the phaser rest point.)
ashford
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Re: new ford 5.0 ti-vct

Post by ashford »

msq and screen shot
wes kiser
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Re: new ford 5.0 ti-vct

Post by wes kiser »

Great news. I will be helping some one set this up on one of these soon.

Does actual phase track commanded fairly closely? I will only use MAF as a last resort, and have had good luck with other controllers in the past and "normal" load methods. This was always with some form of motorsport ECU, that only had a "cams parked" and "cams phased" set of fuel and spark tables. It would obviously require me to table switch below the VVT coolant temp threshold, although ideally logic would be added to detect when the cams were no longer parked and table switch based on that.
86 Rx-7, swapped to 2.3 ford turbo (BW EFR 6758), ms3/ms3x sequential fuel /waste spark, ls2 coils
88 Tbird 2.3t, Microsquirt Module (PIMP), TFI ignition
ashford
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Re: new ford 5.0 ti-vct

Post by ashford »

when i had the pid numbers jacked up it followed perfectly, however i would get an occasional oscilation that it wouldnt recover from.

if you need more info just ask
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