new ford 5.0 ti-vct

[jsimmons]

i tried it on the spare ncv1124 channel and it works well!?!?! i have no clue why but the ms3x vr conditioner shifts back the signal, it makes no sense vr scoped look exactly the same.

i still have vvt1 sensor wired backwards and noticed @3000 rpm there is less retard vvt1 shows -1.2 or so and vvt3 shows -2.5 and idle shows the same at 1.5. so would it be a good idea to invert vvt3 as well?

on a side note, using the hall sensors is probably not a bad idea if the factory wiring is not used, vvt2 and 4 have a twisted pair throughout and seem to be ok for me but the hall sensors share a ground and power source and a single unshielded wire that follows the factory harness from the sensor in the rear of the engine forward near the coils to the pcm plug. it is a relatively short distance on the oem since the computer is next to the engine but on my car there is about another 10 feet or so of wiring after the oe plug. if shielded wire is used outside of the main harness this would solve the hall sensor issue i had. however they lag a bit more than the vr sensors

good to hear everything is working good. Ill probably switch to vr sensors then. I am using a factory harness but I modified it so the plug doesn't come out of the front of the motor. it comes out on the passenger side near the firewall. I still think ill run into noise issues regardless. I wish I knew where to get some factory connectors and pins because id probably just rewire the entire engine using only the ms harness. But for now this will work and ill address any noise issues later. Looks like I should be able to start mine either this weekend or next week. it will be nice to compare whats going on with mine to yours

[ashford]

i was finally able to put my car back together and test drive it. a 10 min test drive resulted in only a handful of vvt errors seemingly at random. the way the error handling works it is not at all noticable and just ignores the bad reading for one cycle. i find this to be completely acceptable.

for future users i would not reccomend all 4 vr sensors unless you are comfortable installing 4 channels of vr conditioner and cutting traces in the ms3x. the hall work fine if rewired with shielded wire, the difference in timing lag is about 2 degrees and easy to tune around. the reading i was getting is most likely the mechanical end actually retarding.

[jsimmons]

How are the errors compaired to before you switched to all vr sensors? Is it more, less or about the same?

[ashford]

How are the errors compaired to before you switched to all vr sensors? Is it more, less or about the same?

it is much less now, most probably because of the wiring i used.

[jsmcortina]

i was finally able to put my car back together and test drive it. a 10 min test drive resulted in only a handful of vvt errors seemingly at random. the way the error handling works it is not at all noticable and just ignores the bad reading for one cycle. i find this to be completely acceptable.

That's great. Thanks for the info.

James

[jsimmons]

How are the errors compaired to before you switched to all vr sensors? Is it more, less or about the same?

it is much less now, most probably because of the wiring i used.

Im guessing the errors were due to noise?

[ashford]

well.... im starting on my 3rd install now and i think i am going to use all 4 hall sensors since i have about 6 of them and no vr. a bit of playing around on with an osciliscope it seems they like a 12v pullup with a 1k resistor, 2200 makes the rising edge rounded quite a bit and using 5v needs alot of resistor enough so that the low side voltage is about .8-.9 volts. this will make modifications alot easier as well inside.

this is my plan use a 1k pullup on pt4 and that only as it has diode protection.

cut out traces on the vr circuit on the ms3x and have a 1k pullup, 1k inline, and 5v zener to ground.
copy above for the other 2

[jsmcortina]

Rather than cutting traces, you could de-solder the op-amp.

James

[ashford]

i found i can desolder r44 easily enough, the opamp seems to be more work than cutting the jp1 header trace( i wont loose the opamp that way either).

i also stumbled across a mod that was unknown to me, the soldering of a wire from s12 to the "c" side of one of the d1-d6 diodes. would this be acceptable enough to not put flyback diodes at the phasers themselves or would the noise generated be enought to affect operation. on my first install i didn't have diodes at first and burnt out q3.

[ashford]

i have limited success, vvt 1 and 3 seem to work 2 and 4 are wonky, need to play around with trigger edges/ offsets. but got it running tonight and fired up right out of the box.
in this install i used toyota prius "smart" coils just need to use the boots and seals from the coyote coils.
i was able to hook it upto the factory v6 exhaust wit a bit of pipe modifications. no tuning done yet, just a copy/paste of my old intall



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnPrg1opoYk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_FyEKeb4-o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r07OBzhcHt8

[ashford]

well the vvt scenario is a bust. i have to try something else, opto isolators?

[ashford]

i installed 2 additional opto isolators a dual channel and a 4n25 so that they are paired. went to test and all my adcs quit working, i found a leftover from the last install, there was a 12v jumper to the top of c30 i had installed a 5v lead to the end of d2 so there was 12v on the 5v system. i fixed that problem and replaced d19 still no adc's, all outputs appear to work on the stim and have tach input. is there aything else to look at before i slap in a different cpu?

[Laminar]

Coyote swap into a V6 SN95? Awesome! Does it bolt right up to 4.6 motor mounts?

[ashford]

Coyote swap into a V6 SN95? Awesome! Does it bolt right up to 4.6 motor mounts?

its a 99 so edge chassis. the coyote and mod motor share the same motor mounts(5.0 has an extra bolt holes not on a 4.6)and bell housing

the 4n25's seem to work flawlessly with the intake hall sensors vvt2(exhaust spends most of its time erred) the exhaust are on a dual channel opto logic isolator( i have others non logic level) i think maybee the 12v on the 5v might have damaged it.

[ashford]

success, the opto isolators needed more capacitor. now i lost my speedo out . its a totally different car with working vvt.

[jsmcortina]

All four working well?

James

[ashford]

a log of about a 5 minute drive i had about 30 vvt1 errors, 1 vvt2 errors, 0 vvt3 errors and 5 vvt4 errors.pretty good compared to my last install, nothing noticable at all driving it or major changes in vvt angle readings in the log.
ill upload a diagram of what i did this time around when things are sorted out 100%. the hall sensors are usable when setup right, they are a bit picky though.

swapping vr and hall sensors around has about a 5* offset in values. probably due to vr triggering when lined up on a tooth vs a hall triggering at the enterance/exit of the tooth.

another thing that bugs me i can't quite come to a conclusion on. vvt1 and 3 have had a 4*-6* difference parked on all 4 cars i have had dealings with. i don't know if this is because ford made a boo-boo again on the 4 valve engines by having one intake cam chain tensioner on the taught side and one on the slack side( there are products on the market to fix this) or if there is an offset in the code itself.

[ashford]

i took a 30 minute log, had 0 errors for cam 1 and 2, 1 for 3 and a few for 4

vvterrors.png

[jsmcortina]

another thing that bugs me i can't quite come to a conclusion on. vvt1 and 3 have had a 4*-6* difference parked on all 4 cars i have had dealings with. [ ...... ] or if there is an offset in the code itself.

It is encoded in the code itself.

James

[ashford]

another thing that bugs me i can't quite come to a conclusion on. vvt1 and 3 have had a 4*-6* difference parked on all 4 cars i have had dealings with. [ ...... ] or if there is an offset in the code itself.

It is encoded in the code itself.

James

what im trying to ask is if there is a mechanical discrepancy or a code discrepancy if there is a mechanical( quite possible) ill leave the vvt1 and 3 min/max angles the same. if there is a code discrepancy ill adjust min/max angle so that they match. the reluctors on the cams are supposed to be precision installed.

it would put my mind at ease if you could tell me if the hard coded offsets are an even number ie 90,180,270, 360 difference.


for the hall sensors the 4n25 works great a dual channel would work as well the logic level one i used is a bit too fast and will pick up small amounts of noise, larger capacitors fix this but then it becomes just as slow as an analog unit
this circuit works well with them, the proto area gets completely used if single channel units are used.

opto.jpg