new ford 5.0 ti-vct

Testing and development of Megasquirt 3

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ashford
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new ford 5.0 ti-vct

Post by ashford »

anyone ever try to run one of these engines? i am tired of battling bad/overpriced parts for the now obsolete 4.6 dohc engines, the only thing left is used junk parts or skyjaced prices. i can buy a 16k mile 5.0 for less than the price of parts i need to fix mine.

as far as i know motor mounts and bellhousing is the same so the mechanical end is taken care of, i just need to know what to do with the vvt on these engines.

as stock it has 4 phasers, 4 cam position sensors with a range of 50* movement. ther are limiters on the market and also lockouts.

i haven't kept track of the vvt progress on ms and would like to know if keeping stock vvt is possible on this engine
Image
Matt Cramer
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Re: new ford 5.0 ti-vct

Post by Matt Cramer »

These look as if they would take a custom wheel decoder. So far, we have been waiting for someone to make either (1) a composite log of cranking one of these motors, or (2) a diagram showing the tooth locations in crank degrees.
Matt Cramer -1966 Dodge Dart slant six running on MS3X
ashford
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Re: new ford 5.0 ti-vct

Post by ashford »

i am willing i can buy the motor whenever and get composite logs but will not do any testing till end of winter as i am going to ru the car the way it is for the rest of the season.

btw the car dynoed 476 rwhp and 550 rwt on 9 lbs, as you can imagine it is a blast to drive. if i use the coyote i will loose the turbo and do my best to get around 450 rwhp na.

ill wait for james to chime in on this befor i bite the bullet though.
jsmcortina
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Re: new ford 5.0 ti-vct

Post by jsmcortina »

Basically what Matt said.
We'd like to support it, but have no data.

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

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ashford
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Re: new ford 5.0 ti-vct

Post by ashford »

i should be getting the motor tomorrow. i have a trans to bolt to it. just need a starter and a free megasquirt.
Matt Cramer
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Re: new ford 5.0 ti-vct

Post by Matt Cramer »

I don't have a free one, but I could hook you up with a discounted MS3-Pro in exchange for testing this. PM me if you're interested.
Matt Cramer -1966 Dodge Dart slant six running on MS3X
ashford
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Re: new ford 5.0 ti-vct

Post by ashford »

Matt Cramer wrote:I don't have a free one, but I could hook you up with a discounted MS3-Pro in exchange for testing this. PM me if you're interested.

the car its going into has an ms3 already,i meant free as in not in use or easy to remove, thanks for the offer though.

on a side note does the ms3 pro have 5 vr inputs? i was thinking of putting 2 ncv1124's on a schmartsboard im my ms3 and a spare quadspark to run the solenoids
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Re: new ford 5.0 ti-vct

Post by Matt Cramer »

The MS3-Pro has two VR inputs; the frequency inputs can be wired to an external conditioner.
Matt Cramer -1966 Dodge Dart slant six running on MS3X
ashford
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Re: new ford 5.0 ti-vct

Post by ashford »

looking the motor over closely it has hall sensors for the intake cams and vr for the exhaust, that will make things interesting for me.

@james does cam #1 need to be on ms3x cam in, id like to build twin circuits on the mainboard so everything matches then use the ms3x vr for vss
S.Bretz
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Re: new ford 5.0 ti-vct

Post by S.Bretz »

Are you sure you are not looking at the cam actuators?..usually those are only 2 wire plugs since they are usually a PWM solenoid. I could see those being mistaken for VR sensors.
ashford
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Re: new ford 5.0 ti-vct

Post by ashford »

S.Bretz wrote:Are you sure you are not looking at the cam actuators?..usually those are only 2 wire plugs since they are usually a PWM solenoid. I could see those being mistaken for VR sensors.
i am sure, the only reason i noticed it was a hall is because the junk yard broke the housing of one and noticed it was a 3 wire. i was all happy i didnt have to make a vr conditioner then looked at the other 3 and the exhaust are vr, wiring diagram confirms it.

i need to do some asking around on some of the ford forums and find out how the factory pcm handles the timing at curise, cold, etc. i understand the optimum power, efficiency settings the rest looks like jibberish to me( i have hp tuners).
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Re: new ford 5.0 ti-vct

Post by jsmcortina »

ashford wrote:@james does cam #1 need to be on ms3x cam in, id like to build twin circuits on the mainboard so everything matches then use the ms3x vr for vss
This varies engine to engine.

Some use the intake cam for phase identification, some use the exhaust. Until I have seen composite logs from this engine (with each cam connected to the main cam input in turn) I don't know.

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

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ashford
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Re: new ford 5.0 ti-vct

Post by ashford »

ill do my best to get a log tomorrow, reference each cam to crank then the 2 intakes ?
S.Bretz
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Re: new ford 5.0 ti-vct

Post by S.Bretz »

James needs each cam hooked up to the "cam in" individually so that he can get a map of the cam signals in relation to the crank signal. Each cam will need to be mapped one at a time and saved so he can compare them.

The spare cam inputs won't take a VR, so Jame will have to help you with that to do some DIY stuff to convert them or you could probably get a universal hall sensor and make something up to position them correctly.
ashford
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Re: new ford 5.0 ti-vct

Post by ashford »

i did the logs today, crank vr is setup on the scope and sinwave generator for the car it came out of for best rising and falling(50% duty cycle) througout the frequenc;y range of the wheel.

the vr for the ms3x was setup per manual for hall on the intake and vr for the exhaust, a few others were taken with 2 turns on the pots, the filename reflects what was done.

i don't know the retionship of tdc with the crank wheel but i am assuming it is the same as edis 8 or later dis systems, missing tooth 5 teeth before tdc or what yields missing tooth #1 angle of 40, i will pull the trans back off and verify. i didn't get to pulling the valvecovers off to snap a pic of the cam wheels at tdc, the heat was wearing me down quite bad as i did 3 hrs of tig welding this morning.
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Re: new ford 5.0 ti-vct

Post by jsmcortina »

Out of the logs the best are:
left exhaust 2 turns each pot
left intake
right exhaust 2 turns each pot
right intake

The intake and exhaust are opposite polarity, but this can be correct in the settings.

It is now on the TODO to figure out a custom decoder for this pattern.

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
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ashford
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Re: new ford 5.0 ti-vct

Post by ashford »

i took the right side valve cover off to get pics, then the trans and flexplate.

all parts rotate counterclockwise as viewed in pictures

the right exhaust with #1 at tdc. looks to be just before the middle tooth on the 3 tooth grouping
right exh tdc1.jpg

the right intake at tdc looks pretty much between a 2 and 3 group
right intake at tdc1.jpg
the crank trigger at tdc
tdc.jpg
my guess was right on the crank trigger.

on the vr inputs(crank and exhust cams) i was looking at the logs and think the rising edges should be used the falling moved around a bit depending on vr settings, this will probably move as well with rpm.

the hall sensors(intake cams) seems the falling edge is the one to use. could use both rising and falling but that would make 2 different decoders?
ashford
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Re: new ford 5.0 ti-vct

Post by ashford »

i have found out that the cams in their parked positions(0 duty) give the widest lobe seperation. when parked the intake is fully retarded and the exhaust if fully advanced. it appears the vvt solenoids are not valves but actuators that push on a valve in the phaser.
phasers.jpg

i have wiring diagrams for the f150
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Re: new ford 5.0 ti-vct

Post by jsmcortina »

The next pre-1.4 alpha will include a decoder for testing.

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
New users, please read the "Forum Help Page".
ashford
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Re: new ford 5.0 ti-vct

Post by ashford »

jsmcortina wrote:The next pre-1.4 alpha will include a decoder for testing.

James
so your saying i should get the rest of my needed parts to drop the motor in? :yeah!:
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