Suggestions for B&G for new CPU PCB

[crystallattice]

I'm sold on mega squirt looking at the software and tuning side of things but the hardware is a different story...

I don't mind soldering but find the current setup a bit off putting. Then there is all the license issues, which I still don't understand.

My suggestion: make the MS3 CPU on a credit card size PCB with lots of pins along the sides. (Beagle Bone Black is a good example) This gives the ability of later adding a better chip and still maintain the same size/pin out. This is also more than enough real estate to put things like SD card /usb/ LAN sockets and any other future CPU related expansion. This CPU card can also feature an authentication chip and unique ID which is verified by software. B&G can be the sole manufacturers of these boards.

Then anyone/manufacturer can make their own breakout board based on this CPU, no questions asked. If you manufacture the board commercially then you will have to provide the support/backup for it. These boards could also be made in a SMD version to reduce cost and incorporated into ready built units.

This is what I want: take this credit card sized CPU and design my own main PCB to fit MY requirements. No HW support, but it will fit my budget. Now we can have a forum/pool for sharing circuits to condition various inputs/outputs. Clever manufacturers will make a main board with plugin modules based on these "tried and tested circuits", again kit form/ pre assembled. This makes the whole system modular and also makes it possible to progress/update faster and also allow a non electronics fundi to get a DIY ECU going albeit at a higher cost compared to soldering, yet still cheaper than a pre assembled unit and still giving the possibility of customization on the HW side of things.

On other forums/Facebook people are VERY negative about MS, and frankly I can understand why: it is either everything or nothing, no in between.

I will probably still build a MS ECU, but will have to work around all the confusion. Maybe B&G and the other main players can think about my suggestions and beat me to it! PS. I have no commercial interest, I only want to simplify my build but think many others could benefit from this.

This is probably not the right place to post this but frankly MS is all over the place and I'm not sure where it's true home is....

[Matt Cramer]

Something like this?

http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/ms3p ... p-544.html

It may have a bit more circuitry than you'd planned on it, but it is an SMD device you can buy that can be dropped into any other board, no questions asked, licensing fees included.

[racingmini_mtl]

Matt, I think that what I mentioned in this post is more in line with the O/P suggestion.

Jean

[crystallattice]

Matt this was my initial response when I first saw the MS3-Pro a few days ago: Yes! no.... WTF..$$

I can't justify that kind of money to do do what I want to do. If it didn't have the output drivers, but still the same size and rows of holes I can see myself paying close to the MS3 even if the USB/SD card was left off/made as an add-on.

I can get a complete aftermarket ECU fitted, dyno tuned and have money left over. For the money of the MS3 CPU, I can get a completely assembled ECU with wiring, relays and maybe even an ignitor thrown in for the MS3 CPU. I know this is not Apple vs apples but price is a powerful thing.

Jean! I'm glad we are on the same page! I agree with most of what you said except I would not include any input/output conditioning circuits. It could break or become obsolete.

RTC + battery/super capacitor
USB
RS232
CAN
SD CARD/micro SD/ onboard NAND FLASH memory
Few LEDS
Boot button
VRef but not Vreg.

Some supply protection/clamping/filtering onboard.

This way the CPU retains is versatility and flexibility for any application. A small PCB with the MS3-Pro output HW can be sandwiched on for those who want to buy a more ready made unit.

One of my thoughts was to buy the MS3 and desolder the chip and put it on my own credit card size design and chuck the rest, but at $200+ and then all that effort, I'll rather make another plan..,

[crystallattice]

I just counted the IO pins on my Beagle Bone black, there are 46 pins on either side of the PCB. Not all of these are IO pins but still, I added the pins up from Jeans idea and it worked out to around 62 pins vs the available 92. If one adds pins to the ends of the PCB, one can use these for CAN type IO expansion

The other possibility is to start with just the basic chip + USB + serial on the card, then as sales grow, add the SD card, RTC etc. This will make the entry level price low, yet provide the room for expansion. This way the main board can remain the same even for a newer CPU with extra goodies added but to get the most out of the CPU you will have to upgrade the main PCB. The reverse is also true, you can phase in a new main PCB and still be able to use the old CPU, when the customer is ready to take advantage of using the new PCB to its full potential, just upgrade the CPU. I know this is currently the case but I think this will be a much more elegant solution.

This whole concept is pretty much what the Arduino has and as much as I don't like the Arduino, it is pretty successful as far as I can tell.....

Wikipedia:

Arduino boards can be purchased assembled or as do-it-yourself kits. Hardware design information is available for those who would like to assemble an Arduino by hand. It was estimated in mid-2011 that over 300,000 official Arduinos had been commercially produced,[2] and in 2013 that 700,000 official boards were in users' hands.[3]

[xrattiracer]

Jean's post seems similar to what the raspberry pi foundation is doing with their compute module, which seems like it could be a good idea. i cant imagine the costs should be too difference for either the module or the carrier board since the hardware is similar. this would mean that there would be no outside connections on the module itself, including usb and sd card which i think is better anyway.

[crystallattice]

I'm not sure IF or WHEN anybody is going to do something about this but here is a bit of a teaser of what I think should happen! I call it the "MS3 Credit-card CPU"

As you can see there is lots of space around all the IC's and heck, there is nothing on the other side of the PCB yet! I used the Beagle Bone Black footprint and added all the extra components over that in EAGLE. Remember this thing is the size of a credit card! Only 85x54mm!!

Just thinking out loud here.... If enough people like it and donate money, we can get this thing produced and have enough money left over to fight B&G in court... Unless they get a move on and do it themselves! Either way, I'm open for consultation....

[dontz125]

Just thinking out loud here.... If enough people like it and donate money, we can get this thing produced and have enough money left over to fight B&G in court... Unless they get a move on and do it themselves! Either way, I'm open for consultation....

Yeah, keep thinking loudly, right up until you get yourself banned - you DO realise, this is a B&G commercial site?

And how did you plan on getting the monitor files for the MS3? You know, the non-standard, locked, copy-protected, can't-be-read monitor, different from the standard Freescale firmware, without which the MS3 firmware cannot be run?

You have a fascinating idea, one that I would be interested in supporting. Don't blow it out of the water with stupid declarations of war made in the other side's lunch room.

[crystallattice]

I have no intention to get banned but if I do, it means the right people saw my post and maybe something else will also happen....

I think I'm one of many frustrated people out there that wish something would change to make it better. I said it before, I don't have commercial intentions, it is more a community idea from which everyone can benefit, including B&G, which I think the original idea of Megasquirt was??. If they need someone to (help) get the wheel rolling, I'm in.

And how did you plan on getting the monitor files for the MS3? You know, the non-standard, locked, copy-protected, can't-be-read monitor, different from the standard Freescale firmware, without which the MS3 firmware cannot be run?

I was not planning of getting any files, refer to my statement above. I have never met the B&G guys and they have done a great job so far, I'm saying I think it can be made even better. If I have to step on a few toes to get heard then so be it!

[dontz125]

Trust me, I have no issues with people clamouring for better products or less baffling licensing methods - I've been chatting with B&G off and on for 2-3 years now, and the combination of their statements that 1) they've never made money off a licensed product, and 2) they have no intention of changing their licensing practices leaves me absolutely dumbfounded.

I am no stranger to people getting upset with me over something I typed that received a completely different reaction from what I expected, and from what it surely would have received face to face. You may have made your statement tongue-in-cheek, or perhaps with a little frustrated door-kicking in mind, but the fact is that:

If enough people like it and donate money, we can get this thing produced and have enough money left over to fight B&G in court

has a face-value interpretation of a declaration of conspiracy and piracy. Watch how high you hoist the Jolly Roger, lest ye be invited to walk the plank!

[crystallattice]

One of the marvels of internet is that with all the technology we have, we still can't convey proper emotions whilst communicating on a forum. Or maybe I should learn to type better? Yes, everything said is with tongue in cheek, don't want to be kicking things, been there done that, broke the toe... If you knew me you would know that the last thing I want is to start a war over this crap!

If enough people like it and donate money, we can get this thing produced and have enough money left over to fight B&G in court

If you analyze that statement further you will see that I said "we" meaning community.... My other subtle message I wanted to convey was that if B&G does not want to move forward maybe we (as a community) should and then fight them off later once they realized what happened.

Look, at the end of the day, my post will probably be archived with all the others and forgotten forever, nothing will come of it other than me having blown off some steam and stepped on some toes and laughed about it a bit. Some years later, someone else might have the same idea, do some searching like I did, come across an old post suggesting improvements (this one) and be in the same boat as I'm sitting in right now.

I will probably end up buying a MS3, do some crazy wiring to make it work in my OEM ECU box and move on with my life just like everyone else...

However, how did DIY-autotune manage to produce their own MS3-PRO?? I was hoping to get some more input from Matt on my idea. I don't know all the hairy details but I thought maybe someone ran out of inspiration along the way and I was hoping that my layout idea might spark something, other than war

[crystallattice]

Matt, I sent you a PM.

[jsmcortina]

Don called it. Not acceptable to propose breaching copyright and raising money to fight the site owners in court.

Banned.