A couple feature requests...

[Toma]

While talking to Matt about an MS3 Ultimate with overfuelling issues and adding unaccounted for PW, I noticed a "high power timer enrichment". Very cool feature, I would like to see a High Power Timing retard.

And/Or would like to see 2 more "generic" fuel and timing tables, where we could assign the axis we want, for example, instead of asking you for a "highpower timing retard table", I could click "Generic Spark table 1", then assign "time at high load " as one axis, and perhaps "IAT temp" on the other. Or leave it as 2d instead of 3d etc.

I want to lock Maps. After 20 years, MS is still quirky, does weird s*** from time to time. Sometimes is a challenge to get working etc. Many unbilled hours have been spent. I know I've seen arguments "its against the spirit of diy" etc. But, we are now paying good money for prebuilt boxes, with names like "gold", "Pro", "Ultimate", and I want to protect my work from newbie tooners that will profit from my previous tune. I am here to tune for money, and I do not want to make my money teaching every new tooner out there that learns his craft by watching youtube tuning vidoes over and over while eating chips with his left hand, and scratching his nuts with the right. If they tune for $, they should be able to start over.

Having said that, I would like 'layered' encryption. For example, I can choose to let them see logs, set timing, change rpm limits for like the 2 step, etc. But not other config or tune settings. Click through a list maybe of what is accessible when locked. Or even like the old tuning software that would have "novice", "advanced" or "expert" levels of map access that the manufacturer could unlock. And it would be ultra cool if I could send them a tune, that they could load while "encrypted" like SCT or something. Its a feature I've never seen in another ECU, but with things getting more in depth, sure would be cool.

Lastly, Tuner studio. I would like to be able to direct type values into a fuel table. Say I click a cell, I would like to be able to type "56" hit enter, and done. Or, highlight an entire section, type in "98" and hit enter and have the whole area change. It's a small grievance over having to hit = first, but it would be nice. Having a working "Ctrl z" would be cool too.

I have complained about it before, but I want a much faster auto tune. I can drive steady state in a cell on the dyno, and it takes forever to tune that cell. Seems faster if you sweep through it a few times. So if that can't be done, give me a key shortcut that applies the difference between commanded AFR, and actual afr+02 correction. Ie, if I want 14.0, and it's at 13.0, and its maxed out my o2 correction at say -5%, let me hit "w" or something, and correct the cell by 88% instantly.

Thanks,
Toma

[Raymond_B]

I've messed with the Ford side of "tooning" since the mid 90's as both a consumer and a business. I never liked the whole "don't look at my tune" mentality, and honestly the value a good tuner offers cannot just be learned from looking at a file. I very much hope none of this ever gets applied to any Megasquirt products, as yeah, it really does go against the whole idea of DIY.

And really, if a customer pays a business to tune a vehicle and the business calibrates that EFI system, who owns the calibration written to the controller at that point? Now it seems as if you've entered in to some sort of quasi Intellectual Property argument...

[BigBlockMopar]

...
Lastly, Tuner studio. I would like to be able to direct type values into a fuel table. Say I click a cell, I would like to be able to type "56" hit enter, and done. Or, highlight an entire section, type in "98" and hit enter and have the whole area change. It's a small grievance over having to hit = first, but it would be nice. Having a working "Ctrl z" would be cool too.
...

The first part, this works already.
I can click/select any cell in the table, enter a number, press a cursor-key right/left/up/down and fill in another number again without issues. Can 'walk' around the entire table this way.
Don't have to use the "Enter"-key or the "="-key at all.

I can scroll through the table with just the cursor keys, and also select a range by holding Shift and hit a cursor key a couple of times.
Changing all those cells needs to have the "=" key once to change them all at once.

I agree that the default CTRL-Z should be incorporated.

[Toma]

I've messed with the Ford side of "tooning" since the mid 90's as both a consumer and a business. I never liked the whole "don't look at my tune" mentality, and honestly the value a good tuner offers cannot just be learned from looking at a file. I very much hope none of this ever gets applied to any Megasquirt products, as yeah, it really does go against the whole idea of DIY.

And really, if a customer pays a business to tune a vehicle and the business calibrates that EFI system, who owns the calibration written to the controller at that point? Now it seems as if you've entered in to some sort of quasi Intellectual Property argument...

This is an ongoing argument that will never be won.

Megasquirt is no longer DIY. Maybe leave the MS2 stuff alone, but if you sell me a pre made product, call it gold, or pro, or ultimate, it is a professional product, not something you cobbled together from radio shack.

I also view it differently. You are paying me for dyno time, and an end goal. A good running car. You are not paying me to teach you how I got there, you are not paying me to make your future tuner easier money, or to share with your friends, or whatever reason you have to look at or f*** with the tune itself. You paid for my time, and equipment, you own nothing else of me. If the tune itself is so valueless on top of my time and equipment, then you should have zero problem starting over.

So, is the customer paying for a tune, or THE tune. That's upto individual business to decide. Difference between the mail order tooners, and the actual tuners.

You do what you want, let me do what I want. Pretty basic concept.

[racingmini_mtl]

The main problem I see in having a locking feature is that it will take less than 1 week after that feature is implemented before there is a work around published somewhere on the net. Then it becomes useless and has taken a lot of time to implement for nothing. Moreover, you can no longer publish the source code.

If a new ECU is designed from the start with that in mind then there can be some way to do that with additional hardware and you could likely even continue to have most of the DIY aspects if desired. Trying to retrofit that to an existing product without screwing up some aspects is likely to be a waste of time.

Jean

[Reverant]

The biggest reason in favor of lockable maps by far, is warranty. Professional tuners are expected to be able to offer warranty on their tunes. If a tuner can't lock down the map for warranty purposes per the customer's request, he can't offer the warranty and will likely move on to another platform, which is not what we want.

[jamies]

oems dont lock maps on most vehicles, ie gm / ford you can read the stock tune with hpt.
locking the tune doesnt really accomplish much, if you, the tuner keep a database of all the tunes you have done, then mr.xyz comes in with an issue, you will be quickly able to compare the current tune, with your previous tune it was sent out the door with, if its different then you know someones messed with it.
on the flip side, i tune a vehicle and lock the ecu, then the customer comes to you for whatever reason because they want something changed, and you cant do it..... it becomes counter productive.
Dont forget the customer owns the ecu, and pays for the tune, a tune is not intellectual property, it is merely parameters that makes the engine run. I dont think locking / encrypting will solve much, BUT, maybe some sort of msq checksum to compare, or have the ecu show last tune update - date and time in the case of MS3 where they have onboard RTC.

[slow_hemi6]

If you buy a pre made product, call it gold, or pro, or ultimate, it is a professional product.
So you should be approaching those manufacturers with you ideas and concerns. They will then make up their minds whether there is merit ($) in the suggestion and no doubt discuss with the developers as to viability and cost.

[Toma]

The main problem I see in having a locking feature is that it will take less than 1 week after that feature is implemented before there is a work around published somewhere on the net. Then it becomes useless and has taken a lot of time to implement for nothing. Moreover, you can no longer publish the source code.

If a new ECU is designed from the start with that in mind then there can be some way to do that with additional hardware and you could likely even continue to have most of the DIY aspects if desired. Trying to retrofit that to an existing product without screwing up some aspects is likely to be a waste of time.

Jean

That makes sense. I have no interest in the coding part, didn't even realize the source code was still published.

[Toma]

oems dont lock maps on most vehicles, ie gm / ford you can read the stock tune with hpt..

OEM's most CERTAINLY DO make every attempt to keep us out of their ecu's. They do not supply anything to us. They encrypt what they can, we cant even read many many ecu's, some need to be cracked open and the info read off the chip with a BDM frame etc. Then figuring out what all that hex means... lmao.

lol. Funny guy.

Aftermarket products like HP Tuners, Winols, Rom Editor etc are basically built by hackers,

[Toma]

If you buy a pre made product, call it gold, or pro, or ultimate, it is a professional product.
So you should be approaching those manufacturers with you ideas and concerns. They will then make up their minds whether there is merit ($) in the suggestion and no doubt discuss with the developers as to viability and cost.

They are here, and read these forums. I wonder what the sales ratio today is between radioshack kits, and pre built boxes?

[Laminar]

Megasquirt is no longer DIY. Maybe leave the MS2 stuff alone, but if you sell me a pre made product, call it gold, or pro, or ultimate, it is a professional product, not something you cobbled together from radio shack.

It sounds like you think "DIY" refers only to the assembly of the kit, not the installation and tuning of the vehicle. The Megasquirt isn't considered "DIY" because you solder a bunch of resistors to a board, the Megasquirt is considered "DIY" because any half-competent home garage monkey can install and tune his or her own standalone ECU with an old laptop and free software. The option of soldering it yourself is just a bonus for the cheap-asses among us to save a couple bucks. A pre-assembled kit isn't any less DIY.

They are here, and read these forums. I wonder what the sales ratio today is between radioshack kits, and pre built boxes?

A better question that would more directly address the point you're trying to make - how many end users tune the vehicle themselves vs. how many go to a professional tuner?

[jsmcortina]

Perhaps this "DIY" could be split into three categories.

a. self assemble or pre-assembled
b. self install or shop install
c. self tune or dyno tune

Categories b and c are much the same regardless of the brand of aftermarket ECU.

James

[dontz125]

The biggest reason in favor of lockable maps by far, is warranty. Professional tuners are expected to be able to offer warranty on their tunes. If a tuner can't lock down the map for warranty purposes per the customer's request, he can't offer the warranty and will likely move on to another platform, which is not what we want.

Print off the VE and spark maps, have the customer sign the print-outs, keep them on file. If the car comes back with a grenaded engine and the maps are different ...

[93supercoupe]

I dont care what anyone says, but you cant learn what i know by looking at my tune. Its not that straight forward. The only thing you may be able to take away as a certain, is ignition timing values. Other then that, there are too many variables to learn, copy, steal.

Im on the other side. I hope they end up in front of people that can use it a solid base. We have all seen some pretty terrible base maps.

[Laminar]

Print off the VE and spark maps, have the customer sign the print-outs, keep them on file. If the car comes back with a grenaded engine and the maps are different ...

The first thing I'd do if I grenaded my engine is reinstall the original tune that I saved before messing around with stuff. Unless the MS box has a way to timestamp when a tune file is written?

[suberimakuri]

I like the idea of approaching the sellers of the PRO/GOLD/ULTIMATE regarding the locking request.
If they did that then you could choose to only dyno those ecus and arguably they are there for that 'professional' market anyway.
All of the other ECU's are open for modification and lend themselves to the hobby/amateur/motivated market.

Time stamping the last change, mod #, providing a checksum are good ideas. This could be printed & signed by customer. The mod# would increment on 'saves or edits'.

I like the Tunerstudio idea of quickly changing cell value based on difference between EGO# and Target AFR. This would speed up tuning for sure. I tend to use the shift up/down to change by 5 at a time, but having a 'w' would be great.
An undo function would be great in the maps.